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Triple H & Stephanie Mcmahon Vs Angle/Rousey Fued

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Kondor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kondor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/April/2018 at 14:54
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Most people know that Rousey could beat the shit out the majority of men on the roster. Basically everyone but Brock Lesnar and Braun Strowman and maybe Samoa Joe Rousey would destroy in a real fight. It's really a shame that WWE has so few tough guys anymore. No more Bad News Browns, no more Hakus, no more Vaders, no more Mad Dog Vachons, no more Shamrocks, or more Severns. They're all Hollywood tough guys. Great wrestlers, but pansies for the most part. Not only that but Rousey ain't small either, about the same size as Bruce Lee. Plenty big enough to beat the hell out of someone twice her size who knows very little about fighting.

Rousey making Triple H tap would not be the worst thing in the world except for one small technicality. Mixed tag rules state that men must fight men and women must fight women. So either Angle makes Triple H tap, or Rousey makes Steph tap.

Actually looking at the WWE roster, the women are far tougher than the men. The men have Lesnar and his 40 year old chicken legs that could be snapped like a twig, a far past his prime Kurt Angle, a gimpy Samoa Joe, and then Braun Strowman who is big and strong but not especially skilled.

Meanwhile the women have an ex marine in Lacey Evans, and 2 former UFC fighters in Shayna Baszler & Ronda Rousey, as well as another former MMA fighter in Sonya Deville.

If WWE knows what's good for them they'll do something big with Lacey Evans and build her as a spoiler for Rousey & Baszler because she has the training to beat them in a fight.

As far as Triple H is concerned, who cares if he loses? He should job to anyone he meets at WrestleMania.

I..... 


Never mind, I'd be here all day. We've gone around and argued about both Ronda Rousey and Helmsley before. The only thing I'll say is that one of the major differences between you and me is that you let your love of MMA taint the way you view professional wrestling, and if you have knowledge that such and such was an MMA fighter you automatically see them as super tough, which basically means that you at best aren't suspending disbelief properly when you watch a wrestling match and at worst value MMA skills above wrestling ability, which you pretty much admitted, even though wrestling is the sport we are watching. By the kayfabe, Roman Reigns' spear and the Walls of Jericho are equally as devastating as any MMA style submission or strike. 

That being said, I absolutely love two of the guys you mentioned, Bad News Brown (man is he massively underrated) and Haku. I loved Haku since he was young and leaping off the top rope. But I don't see a chop from Haku's as being any more or less lethal than one from Ric Flair, because the opponent reacts the same. 

And Hunter Hearst Helmsley should beat at least 85% of the current roster. 


Edited by Kondor - 04/April/2018 at 15:12

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/April/2018 at 15:29
It's not about MMA it's about legit fighting abilities. Since the WWE doesn't enforce wrestling rules, it IS MMA, only scripted. So someone who can fight, and fight better than anyone in the world, like Rousey in 2015 & Lesnar back whenever that was, should be on top (whether I like it or not). Triple H is over the hill and slower than ever before.

You say I let my love of MMA take the way I view professional wrestling, but I say I let reality decide how I view the WWE. Please tell me what the differences are in the enforced rules between MMA & WWE? If anything MMA is more restrictive.

Sure kayfabe is one thing, but when Triple H is a 50 year old suit behind a desk and Rousey is in her prime 3 years out from being named the best athlete in the WORLD male or female, yes, Rousey wins. Come on man, whose got the skewed view of reality here?

As far as kayfabe is concerned UFC & WWE should be looked at even keel, because as I say UFC's rules are more restrictive than WWEs. That means that WWE wrestlers aren't holding back, while MMA fighters are. It's easier to scout a pro-wrestler, and it's easier to prepare for one, meanwhile Rousey is well trained in wrestling, judo, & BJJ and is one of the best in the world. Triple H doesn't have a fucking shot in hell.

When it comes to a street fight? Rousey beats almost everyone, and anyone who'd deny that is sticking their head in the sand.

But you mistake me talking about a street fight between Rousey and the men, to equating what Rousey should do in a wrestling match against the men. In a wrestling match on TV, Rousey would beat maybe half the men's roster, if maybe a bit more. Reigns, Rollins, Ambrose, Joe, Nakamura, Styles, Strowman, Cena just to name a few off the top of my head should all be able to beat Rousey.

Again however Triple H is not one of them. He's a scaled up better version of Vince McMahon circa 1998, which is saying very little as Vince couldn't do crap on his own and always needed help to do anything. Triple H of 10 years ago is a different story, but I'm not living in the past, thinking he's the same guy then as he is now. I know he's just a suit the exercises, and so show all of the fans. That's why Undertaker isn't the same either. When he was around doing more than just wrestling once a year he was a threat, now he's just... /meh on top of being old.

Go back and read my post again, and separate my talk about a legit fight from that of a wrestling match. I never said Rousey should win a match against everyone, I said beat them up in a real fight. Rousey should not stand head and shoulders above the women's division when it comes to matches, she should however stand shoulder to shoulder with the best in the division, like Flair & Asuka.

Triple H should beat about 60% of the roster. The women, the cruiserweights, and the jobbers.

If Ric Flair can enter the WWF in 1991 holding the NWA World Heavyweight Championship belt fresh out of WCW, and declare himself the REAL world champion and in less than 6 months be WWF champion by beating everyone in a Royal Rumble match, thus establishing that from day 1 he was right there shoulder to shoulder with Hogan, Warrior, & Savage, then a woman like Rousey should surely get comparable treatment when it comes to wrestling.


Edited by Rico Len - 04/April/2018 at 15:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kondor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/April/2018 at 16:29
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

It's not about MMA it's about legit fighting abilities. Since the WWE doesn't enforce wrestling rules, it IS MMA, only scripted. So someone who can fight, and fight better than anyone in the world, like Rousey in 2015 & Lesnar back whenever that was, should be on top (whether I like it or not). Triple H is over the hill and slower than ever before.

You say I let my love of MMA take the way I view professional wrestling, but I say I let reality decide how I view the WWE.

I understand fully what you are saying; and you have mentioned such before. You let "reality" affect how you see professional wrestling. We might be going around in circles here as said; and of course you can view wrestling how you want. But what I am saying is that in my eyes, and the way it should be, is that there is no difference between a "real" move and a fake move. If the opponent fall down (or sells the move) the opponent falls down; it doesn't matter if the attacker excels at your definition of good fighting.

You mention Brock Lesnar being the best fighter and therefore he should be on top, at least at a prior time. I agree. But Brock should be on top because his matches are presented as being totally dominating, not because of any pure fighting skills. Brock should be on top for the same reason Ultimate Warrior should have been on top in 1990; because his matches were presented as being totally dominating, regardless of how well you think he would fare in a back alley fight. 

You ask me to go over your post again and separate your comments about fighting and wrestling and then use fighting skills as a reason for why people should succeed in wrestling. 

And you actually just confirmed my belief that you are not suspending disbelief properly, because in wrestling, if a musclehead clobbers a guy and defeats him in seconds, like Ryback was for example, that becomes the "reality" of wrestling.   

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Please tell me what the differences are in the enforced rules between MMA & WWE? If anything MMA is more restrictive.

I can't comment on the MMA rules as it's been about 11 or 12 years since I've given MMA the slightest attention. 

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Sure kayfabe is one thing, but when Triple H is a 50 year old suit behind a desk and Rousey is in her prime 3 years out from being named the best athlete in the WORLD male or female, yes, Rousey wins. Come on man, whose got the skewed view of reality here?

As far as kayfabe is concerned UFC & WWE should be looked at even keel, because as I say UFC's rules are more restrictive than WWEs. That means that WWE wrestlers aren't holding back, while MMA fighters are. It's easier to scout a pro-wrestler, and it's easier to prepare for one, meanwhile Rousey is well trained in wrestling, judo, & BJJ and is one of the best in the world. Triple H doesn't have a fucking shot in hell.

I think we established some time ago that we will always disagree on Triple H. But I will say two things. 

One, it makes no difference how old Helmsley is because every time he is in the ring; he puts on a very believable (to me) show of appearing as if he is still one of the toughest around. His match last year with Seth Rollins is the perfect testament, and his last match in the ring makes reality within wrestling.    

Two, I am not saying that Rousey should never beat Helmsley or anyone else. I am saying, and have since you started touting her, that she is unproven, which she is. I know you love her, but every argument you have ever made in defense of Rousey is based on something she has done outside of professional wrestling. We are talking about scouting and assessing wrestlers. How I rank how good someone is in professional wrestling is determined by how they have done in the past within professional wrestling; to which Rousey, while impressive in them, has only done a few quick moves during interviews or signing segs. I have nothing to go on besides that. She might be the toughest human being on the planet and beat everyone in seconds, including Triple H. If she does that, my view of her will be formed accordingly. I am by no means dismissing her. What I am saying and have said from the start is that I have nothing to go on.      

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

When it comes to a street fight? Rousey beats almost everyone, and anyone who'd deny that is sticking their head in the sand.

Like I said above, I have nothing to go on, don't watch MMA. 

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

But you mistake me talking about a street fight between Rousey and the men, to equating what Rousey should do in a wrestling match against the men. In a wrestling match on TV, Rousey would beat maybe half the men's roster, if maybe a bit more. Reigns, Rollins, Ambrose, Joe, Nakamura, Styles, Strowman, Cena just to name a few off the top of my head should all be able to beat Rousey.

Okay, that's fair. We might disagree on a name or two, and as said my assessment of Rousey will be reserved for when I see her in a full match; but you are taking the world of wrestling , matching it with what you have seen of Rousey in MMA, and doing a fair mental comparison of who would beat who.  

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Again however Triple H is not one of them. He's a scaled up better version of Vince McMahon circa 1998, which is saying very little as Vince couldn't do crap on his own and always needed help to do anything. Triple H of 10 years ago is a different story, but I'm not living in the past, thinking he's the same guy then as he is now. I know he's just a suit the exercises, and so show all of the fans. That's why Undertaker isn't the same either. When he was around doing more than just wrestling once a year he was a threat, now he's just... /meh on top of being old.

We'll agree to disagree on this one. 

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Go back and read my post again, and separate my talk about a legit fight from that of a wrestling match. I never said Rousey should win a match against everyone, I said beat them up in a real fight. Rousey should not stand head and shoulders above the women's division when it comes to matches, she should however stand shoulder to shoulder with the best in the division, like Flair & Asuka.

I get that, yet in my post I never said that you claimed Rousey would beat everyone in WWE. I said that you seem to see legit fight skills as being a plus in the wrestling ring, and I cite your valuing of people like Bad News, Haku, Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, and Sonya Deville in your post as evidence of that, with you even longing for more people like them today, referring to most of the current crop as "pansies" (your word.) I say that any sold move in the ring makes a wrestler look tough, regardless of whether they would work or not in a back alley fight. 

When I watch Sonya Deville on Raw, I am not thinking 'Oh, she's dangerous because she's an MMA fighter." I am thinking that she's a henchwomen for Paige and fairly talented wrestler in the ring versus the others. 

I can live with Rousey being toe to toe with ladies like Charlotte or Asuka once she proves herself. We disagree on whether or not she has because you include MMA in your assessment and I don't.   

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Triple H should beat about 60% of the roster. The women, the cruiserweights, and the jobbers.

He holds a victory over Brock at WrestleMania. That makes reality and he is capable of beating anyone. 

For the record even I see that WrestleMania victory as a fluke and my mind explained it as he was fighting extra hard for the preservation of his career as it was a career risking match. But I still say Helmsley should beat most of the roster except for Brock, Reigns, Joe, Styles, Taker, Cena, MAYBE Owens.  

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

If Ric Flair can enter the WWF in 1991 holding the NWA World Heavyweight Championship belt fresh out of WCW, and declare himself the REAL world champion and in less than 6 months be WWF champion by beating everyone in a Royal Rumble match, thus establishing that from day 1 he was right there shoulder to shoulder with Hogan, Warrior, & Savage, then a woman like Rousey should surely get comparable treatment when it comes to wrestling.

I completely disagree because that's based on the false premise that professional wrestling and MMA are two leagues of the same sport when they are different entities and different realms with different levels of competition and different rules that form reality entirely. At the 1991 time you mention Flair had proved himself in professional wrestling since the 70's. Sorry and I know you disagree; but it is an apples and oranges comparison.   

Also, Flair did more wrestling from the summer of 1991 to the 1992 Royal Rumble than Rousey has now.  


Edited by Kondor - 04/April/2018 at 17:10

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/April/2018 at 18:42
Wrestling was MMA before MMA was MMA. Everyone knows that. As soon as they started loosening up on the rules of what is and is not allowed, "Wrestling" (IE Pro-Wrestling the way WWE/WWF has presented it through the years) is practically the same thing. That's why they highlight people with different backgrounds of combat sports and present them at such a high level instead of crapping on those people for practicing a different form of martial art than just grappling.

When you have steel cage matches, barbed wire matches, steel chairs, etc., involved in a match you're no longer in a wrestling match at all. You're in some form of martial arts competition where various styles get mixed. IE MMA.

Ric Flair came in walked all over everyone, and won the title. Had he debuted BEFORE WrestleMania 7 he most certainly would have been on the card, and he would have won, even if he was only in exhibition match, and likely not in a title match.

Sound familiar???


You say this:

Quote I understand fully what you are saying; and you have mentioned such before. You let "reality" affect how you see professional wrestling. We might be going around in circles here as said; and of course you can view wrestling how you want. But what I am saying is that in my eyes, and the way it should be, is that there is no difference between a "real" move and a fake move. If the opponent fall down (or sells the move) the opponent falls down; it doesn't matter if the attacker excels at your definition of good fighting.

But that perfectly illustrates that you don't understand what I'm talking about at all. 

When you're in a match in the WWE there IS no difference between a "real" move and fake move. I'm not arguing that at all. That's not at all what I'm talking about. I'm not even remotely suggesting that a WWE superstar should sell harder for an MMA star. I'm saying they should be booked with 50/50 offense during the match, and if the overall believability by the general audience is that the MMA star is the better fighter, then the MMA star should win, not lose just because they haven't "paid their dues" or whatever.

If someone like Connor McGreggor were to join the WWE Roster full-time he should be in the main event spot. If not as champion, or even challenging for the title, at least as one of the headlining acts on the show against a big name in the business of wrestling. Someone like Cena, or Lesnar, or whoever, who are typically associated as the biggest names in the industry today should be working a match with McGreggor and to hell with him working his way up the card. He's a bonafide star in UFC and the world at large knows more about Connor McGreggor than they do of say current WWE Champion AJ Styles.

His spot on the card should be in the main event, and the same goes for Rousey. And why? Because they were huge names and draws in the UFC, and because when you take your head out of kayfabe, they know in real life those two could beat up just about anyone on the WWE roster, top drawing stars included. 

After a time, the spot those stars have on the card can rise or fall, but because they're huge names elsewhere, they need to be treated with the respect they earned elsewhere, or it makes WWE look even more fake than they already are. 

Non-wrestling fans frequently crap all over WWE for being 'fake' and 'make believe' and 'pretend' it would take the believability, or if you prefer the ability for people to suspend their disbelief to a whole new level incredulity to have someone like Rousey get stomped on by Stephanie McMahon.

If Heath Slater were to beat Connor McGreggor in a match at wrestlemania WWE would see a huge exodus of fans not too unlike what happened when David Arquette won the WCW World Heavyweight Championship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Colohue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/April/2018 at 09:18
This is wrestling. If only the people who could actually win fights won fights then I for one wouldn't bother watching. Wrestlemania wouldn't exist. There'd be no Steve Austin or The Rock.

The world would be a much worse place.

MMA has nothing to do with WWE. All it does is mean that WWE don't have to build a storyline and convince us that someone can handle themselves in a fight. It saves time. That's it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/April/2018 at 13:56
That is what I have been trying to say. But Kondor is saying they have to prove themselves all over again. UFC will get you a spot on a card, it'll prove you can draw, and it proves you're a top level professional athlete.

The first two things getting a spot on the card and being a draw are things you'll get and have to maintain. The third gives you a different set of hoops to jump through than other guys in order be taken seriously by management.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/April/2018 at 13:24
Quote We go to the broadcast table where Michael Cole introduces a video package looking at Ronda Rousey & Kurt Angle vs. Triple H & Stephanie McMahon.

 Stephanie McMahon & Triple H vs. Kurt Angle & Ronda Rousey: All the competitors come face to face, and Kurt and Triple H start things off. Kurt hits a big back body drop on Triple H early on and takes control of the match. Stephanie causes a distraction and pulls the ropes, and Triple H throws Kurt outside. Ronda comes to get in their faces and the ref hauls her back. Triple H suplexes Angle back in the ring, then hits a spinebuster. Kurt looks for the tag, but Triple H keeps the Olympian grounded. Kurt boots Triple H away from him, but Stephanie grabs him from behind in a choke. Triple H charges, and Kurt ducks, and Triple H almost hits Stephanie, but Triple H stops in time. The distraction leads to Kurt hitting a big suplex on Triple H. Kurt almost gets the tag to Ronda, but Stephanie runs around and pulls Ronda off the apron. Kurt dumps Triple H outside and gets the tag to Ronda. Ronda pulls Stephanie in and drops her. Ronda hits a back suplex and then pummels on Stephanie in the corner. Ronda throws Stephanie across the ring by the hair, then throws her into the corner. Ronda tosses Stephanie across the ring and looks for an arm bar, and she almost gets it but Stephanie latches on to her hand to block it. Stephanie gouges the eyes and then looks to tag in Triple H, but The Game is still down on the outside. Stephanie kicks Ronda and hits a DDT for a two count. Stephanie hits a kick but then Ronda grabs her by the throat and stops her. Ronda hits a Samoan drop then pins, but Triple H pulls the ref out of the ring. Ronda then yells at Triple H from the ring, and Triple H pulls her outside on the floor. Kurt comes over and pummels on Triple H, then takes him up on top of an announce table. Kurt goes to suplex HHH on the table, but Triple H throws Kurt off onto the other announce table. Triple H retreats back in to the ring to check on Stephanie. Stephanie rolls outside and Ronda runs up on Triple H. The ref says that can’t happen, and pulls them apart, but Triple H gentle pushes the ref aside. Triple H wants to fight Rnda and they go to lock up, but Ronda ends up teeing off on Triple H with punches. Triple H tries to kick Ronda, but Ronda takes him down and then goes for a Samoan Drop, but Stephanie breaks it up. Stephanie slaps Ronda and Ronda no-sells it then chases Stephanie around the ring. Ronda catches Stephanie at ringside and beats her down. Stephanie pushes Rona in to the ring post and both women are down. Back in the ring, Kurt walks up behind Triple H and starts hitting suplexes. Triple H comes back with a facebuster, but Kurt latches on to him again and hits a series of German suplexes. Kurt is fired up now and looks fo rthe Angle Slam, but Triple H escapes. Triple H looks for a Pedigree, but Angle gets out and looks for the Ankle Lock. Triple H escapes and looks for the Pedigree again, but Angle once again escapes and hits the Olympic Slam for a two count. Stephanie runs up on Kurt and tries to kick him, but Kurt catches her leg. The ref tells Kurt not to do anything to her, but the Kurt keeps chanting “yes”, so Kurt goes for the ankle lock. Triple H breaks it up and drops Kurt from behind, then Triple H approaches Ronda who is crawling back in the ring. Triple H looks for the Pedigree on Ronda, but instead goes for a powerbomb, which Ronda reverses into a hurricanrana. Ronda locks in the arm bar, but Stephanie breaks it up and puts Ronda in a choke from behind. Ronda tosses Stephanie down and puts her in an arm bar. Triple H tries to break it up, but Kurt catches him and puts him in an ankle lock. Triple H reverses and sends Kurt crashing in to Ronda. Triple H shoves Kurt into the ring post, then Stephanie throws Ronda into the other ring post. Triple H and Stephanie look to do Pedigrees on Kurt and Ronda, but Kurt dumps Triple H outside, and then Ronda back drops Stephanie. Ronda grabs Stephanie and wants the arm bar. Stephanie puts up a struggle, but Ronda locks it in and Stephanie taps out.

Winners: Kurt Angle & Ronda Rousey

– Kurt and Ronda hug in the ring and celebrate while Triple H and Stephanie recover on the floor.

 
It was a bit of a letdown because Hs recent Mania record is so terrible that it was hard to buy into the heels winning.
 
Ronda was super over. She will have worried about being booed, but she was loved.
 
Stephanie took a hard looking beating from Rousey and deserves credit for putting herself through it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/April/2018 at 14:25
Literally the best match of the night last night. She was definitely protected, but even so she shined on her own with the roll through on the clothesline, and a few other spots where she went above and beyond what was needed of her to look good, and no one helped her. There were plenty more spots where she was helped, than where she wasn't, but still. That's about as good of a debut as anyone in their first ever match could hope to have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/April/2018 at 15:47
Agreed gets match of the night honours from me too as it was the only match that had me gripped throughout, credit to all involved as this was much better than I was expecting.

Ronda Rousey in the build-up hadn't impressed me, her promos had been awkward, her offence looked sloppy and her timing was often off, it didn't bode well for working any actual matches. But here while there were a couple of times her work could have done with being a bit smoother on the whole considering this was her first match she looked pretty good out there and contributed far more to the match than I expected her to.

Triple H and Steph deserve huge credit for excellent storytelling and selling for Ronda making her look like a bad-ass. Kurt is not the performer he once was, he's definitely lost a step in the ring but he played his part more than adequately here, his ring work was kept fairly basic anyway. Rousey was the star here, this match was a vehicle to make her look like she belonged and they achieved that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote #Heel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/April/2018 at 18:28
Thought she was class on Raw - just like at Mania the crowd are 100000% behind her.

I agree with Fletch above too, alot of credit has to go to Steph and HHH - they have really helped with this storyline to get Ronda over
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