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Dose Wwe feel weak????????

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MUSA View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15/January/2018 at 17:21
Originally posted by L-shizzel L-shizzel wrote:

The closest thing to them right now is NJPW and even that won't last long if Triple H is able to successfully sign up the likes of Okada and Omega. 

Oh, I don't see Okada going anywhere.  This is what I absolutely love about Japan - loyalty.  New Japan, All Japan, NOAH - ANY of the promotions, it is VERY rare and VERY hard to see a wrestler jump ship to another promotion.  When it happens, it's major news.  The only time I can recall NJPW losing their homegrown talents would be Keiji Mutoh (Great Muta) and Satoshi Kojima, who jumped to AJPW in their later years of their career (which was shocking).  However, NJPW seems to be a place that built an environment that rosters want to keep being apart of.  Okada has a very strict loyalty to NJPW for giving him the training he wanted, the opportunities he's asked (traveling to America/Mexico), and giving him a shot to be the star.  For evidence, look at Tanahashi.  WWE tried to grab him for a years, but he consistently said no and stated on news outlets that he's loyal to NJPW and will end his career there.  Okada is basically Tanahashi version 2.0.

Let's be honest, WWE money is likely WAY more than NJPW money, yet Omega keeps signing with NJPW.  He was quoted as saying he's just very happy with NJPW.  He likes the creative freedom he gets, he likes working with his friends everyday, he likes that he can talk openly with management, he likes the schedule that NJPW gives him.   They treat him like a human being, and he's grown accustomed to their way. 

WWE is a creatively murdering environment where you're dictated what to do and lose all of your inputs to an arrogant family of rich WASPS.  Omega knows that and is hesitant to sign unless he wants to work a "lighter style" in-ring.  Omega doesn't have a wife or kids, so he really only needs to focus on himself right now.  Omega also has a life out in Japan - so it's not like moving back to the states is very inviting to him.

Don't get me wrong, I think Kenny will sell out sometime - and that sucks.  If I were in Kenny's shoes, I would never want to go to WWE - given his personality, it seems like a bad fit.  But, Okada?  Hell no.  If that happened, I'd be really shocked.  Nakamura was shocking, don't get me wrong, but he was not the NJPW ace like Tanahashi.  Okada is.  I'd more believe someone like SANADA would go to WWE before Okada.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15/January/2018 at 10:10
When Triple H, Stephanie and Shane take the reigns I expect to see a product a bit more like NXT but with obviously a lot more gloss and mainstream appeal, and to be honest that would be absolutely fine with me.

NXT in its glory days was a fine piece of work, gritty, more realistic and solid wrestling action from top to bottom. Mix that up with the glitz and glamour of the main roster and I think you have a winner.

On another note WWE should bring back In Your House, these shows could be used as the brand stand alone events meaning they could be shorter(2-2.5 hours). Then the dual branded major shows of which there are now five would feel more important.

Edited by Fletch - 15/January/2018 at 17:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote L-shizzel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15/January/2018 at 09:42
Originally posted by Fletch Fletch wrote:

I think MUSA is 100% right by saying WWE are in safe mode. Without a viable alternative product for Wrestling fans nothing is challenging WWE to be better, so of course their current business model is to be safe, do what pleases sponsors and advertisers and keeps their PR work flourishing. Trouble is safe is horribly predictable, as someone said a episode of Raw or Smackdown has a template now, long opening promo segment, match, Women’s match, mid-card, mid-card, Cruiserweights, main-event, and they occasionally mix up who does what. Good nearly always triumphs over evil, there is nothing edgy about the product, and everything is scripted, the art of improvisation is dead in WWE.

As MUSA said WWE have also decided to oversaturate their market, this is another safe move as such. In a way it’s business logic, the casual fan will put up with the dull repetitive product so to try and keep the Hardcore fan happy we get the WWE Network where fans can relive the glory days or watch WCW and ECW or just endless collections or documentaries on former talent.

The Network was a smart move, ratings and PPV buys are down in part because of the amount of online content, people don’t need to watch Raw live when they can just catch spoilers or read a online review or catch YouTube highlights or watch the whole thing at a later date via a stream. So WWE combat this by producing a online subscription service which in fairness is a far better service than I ever thought it would be.

The only way I think WWE will ever get out of safe mode is if someone really challenges them, as MUSA also said the burden on creative must be horrendous with the amount of weekly television they have to write so they probably instinctively go with safe options because writing that much unpredictable edgy tv and meeting deadlines would be impossible.
There needs to be a new WCW or even ECW to push WWE to be better and to give the frustrated talent somewhere else to work. A lot of the roster I’m sure just stick it out and go through the motions for the money knowing that the only alternative is to grind it out on the indies. I hope ROH/NJPW can prove to be that alternative in time but right now I’m not convinced.



The closest thing to them right now is NJPW and even that won't last long if Triple H is able to successfully sign up the likes of Okada and Omega. 


If you want WWE to change unfortunately we will have to wait until either Vince Dies or he decides to step down and neither are going to happen anytime soon.

Personally I'm a fan of less talking and more wrestling during the shows and if you want to save your top stars then this is the time when you have the likes of Crews and Axel wrestle so you rest your bigger names for the PPV's.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15/January/2018 at 09:18
I think MUSA is 100% right by saying WWE are in safe mode. Without a viable alternative product for Wrestling fans nothing is challenging WWE to be better, so of course their current business model is to be safe, do what pleases sponsors and advertisers and keeps their PR work flourishing. Trouble is safe is horribly predictable, as someone said a episode of Raw or Smackdown has a template now, long opening promo segment, match, Women’s match, mid-card, mid-card, Cruiserweights, main-event, and they occasionally mix up who does what. Good nearly always triumphs over evil, there is nothing edgy about the product, and everything is scripted, the art of improvisation is dead in WWE.

As MUSA said WWE have also decided to oversaturate their market, this is another safe move as such. In a way it’s business logic, the casual fan will put up with the dull repetitive product so to try and keep the Hardcore fan happy we get the WWE Network where fans can relive the glory days or watch WCW and ECW or just endless collections or documentaries on former talent.

The Network was a smart move, ratings and PPV buys are down in part because of the amount of online content, people don’t need to watch Raw live when they can just catch spoilers or read a online review or catch YouTube highlights or watch the whole thing at a later date via a stream. So WWE combat this by producing a online subscription service which in fairness is a far better service than I ever thought it would be.

The only way I think WWE will ever get out of safe mode is if someone really challenges them, as MUSA also said the burden on creative must be horrendous with the amount of weekly television they have to write so they probably instinctively go with safe options because writing that much unpredictable edgy tv and meeting deadlines would be impossible.
There needs to be a new WCW or even ECW to push WWE to be better and to give the frustrated talent somewhere else to work. A lot of the roster I’m sure just stick it out and go through the motions for the money knowing that the only alternative is to grind it out on the indies. I hope ROH/NJPW can prove to be that alternative in time but right now I’m not convinced.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15/January/2018 at 07:01
If you think I'm arguing with you point by point MUSA, you're wrong. You don't have to get defensive.

I'm pretty sure we are mostly in agreement. Haha

As for the house show reviews, I'll defer to Tom on that. As I hear it House Shows are pretty great.

Not sure when you went but it sounds like it was a few years after I went. Zombie Taker vs Bob Sparkplug Holly was the main event, Men on a Missions Mabel was in a squash match. Double J had a snoozer with 123 Kidd... I don't even remember the rest.

Edited by Rico Len - 15/January/2018 at 07:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MUSA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15/January/2018 at 03:55
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

WWE is also healthier than ever before, they're treating their performers better than ever, even if it still has a long ways to go there.

Let's be clear, they are treating them better because they have to.  The spotlight was on WWE after the Benoit travesty, so they instilled a bunch of reactive processes to make clear that they are solving the situation before investors and advertisers pull out.  The WWE was like a carnival until then, where wrestlers would be dragged through the mud with injuries.  It's only until about the last 5 years that they really started doing right by the talent.  

I'd argue that Punk's "tell all" about how he was treated medically also forced WWE to be super-careful (given the lawsuit with Punk).  They aren't doing it out of the goodness of their heart, they are doing it to cover their asses.

Still, to your point, good for the talent...unless you look at the money they lose when they are injured, because they aren't salaried.

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

]The Network is very good quality for the money. Their charities are doing well, and basically anything and everything you could possibly want from a company WWE are doing right... except giving you a good product.

Right, they are politically doing well...that's what publicly traded companies do.  Prioritize the curtain, not what's behind it.

WWE Network being good quality for the money they ask, I think that's true.  I don't think I ever argued that though.

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

]They are a wrestling company producing television shows and their television shows are godawful pieces of crap. Everyone says their live events are far better these days, and that's the opposite of how things used to be back when I was a kid and the live events were a waste of fucking money, but Prime Time Wrestling was the thing to see.

What reports are saying that?  I haven't seen any "good" House Show reports.  And I actually enjoyed the live events better in the mid-90s and Attitude Era, because they were basically previews of PPV matches.  Pre-internet days, they would practice their matches at house shows.  I remember seeing Diesel vs. Undertaker months before their Wrestlemania match.  I also saw Jarrett vs. Razor Ramon in a Ladder Match literally 2 weeks before they had one.  I LOVED the House Shows as a kid.

Then again, I'd imagine the shows themselves being good, given the roster is basically ROH 2018.  But the attendance is far less than it used to be.  This has been reported my a number of sources.

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

]To me this just points to a necessity of a truly viable alternative to WWE that's at least the caliber of WCW circa 1995-1998. The RoH/NJPW partnership has the possibility of just doing that in 5-10 years. Hell next year they could take a significant jump forward if Daniel Bryan jumps ship and goes to RoH to wrestle again. That's also about the time Dolph Ziggler's contract is up too. Plus whatever is going on with Neville, if they were to all go to RoH, and RoH was able to find the money to pay them, they may very well make a good return on their money grow such that Wrestle Kingdom 13 would be even better still. I mean Omega vs Danielson? Yes please! And again, big IF but IF Jericho were at WK13, as well as Omega, as well as Danielson, as well as Ziggler, as well as Cody, as well as Neville? Fuck dude, WrestleMania ain't got a chance in hell of competing with that. So then let's just say that does for some miracle happen, at that point a return of CM Punk to RoH/NJPW is not a huge stretch to imagine.

Agreed, NJPW is taking things slow and methodical (which is VERY smart).  They are listening to fans and trying to figure out how to cater to an expanded audience.  They aren't doing the "TNA" thing where they just push themselves out there and fuck up royally.  NJPW and ROH are playing it close to the chest and playing around with ideas, knowing they can fail, but given they are going slowly, they can take a hit or two and not risk their goals.

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

]Ultimately if someone can actually put forth a truly good product, one that just blows WWE, in particular NXT Takeover events out of the water WWE will start feeling the blowback of their shit product being neglected and running through Vince for so long.

I don't think that's 100% it.  WWE's production values are bar-none.  NJPW is the only one that comes close to them right now.  NJPW's product looks sharp and looks expensive.  They have the funds to hold those kind of shows in Japan.  There's a rule in TV, where people will immediately know if they are interested in your show if the audio and video sound HD-quality.  If it doesn't, you're typically dead in the water.

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

]And there's the kicker. NXT Takeover events don't go through Vince. They go through Triple H and they've been strong throughout their entire history. They're the reason hardcore fans stick around. They see all these fantastic shows in NXT, get attached to these new up and coming stars, and then see them head to Raw/Smackdown and naively hope to see them become big names on the main roster. Until something changes there in the minds of the fans, I don't see anything good happening for another company no matter how good their product is.

I don't agree with that final sentence.  NXT is "appeasing" a hunger, but it's not fulfilling it.  NXT is the minor leagues and it's WWE's attempt to have their own "indy promotion".  It was very smart of them to do this.  Triple H has done a very good job witht that show.  But, I've seen a shift in NXT lately that is boring some fans.  NXT was a salute to the Attitude Era mixed with indy-rifici performances.  They used to tell stories that moved slowly and matches that rocked the crowd.  However, these days, the stories are lack luster, while the wrestling is still stellar.  They are basically ROH, which appeases fans, but doesn't fulfill they hunger for an alternative.

New Japan's product is the only one I see giving WWE a run for their money - people are getting fulfilled by what they are offering right now.  How long will that last?  Only time will tell, but when Reddit users are fighting over the Wrestle Kingdom booking like they do about WWE - youv'e conquered a milestone that many haven't done in years.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sowhat? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15/January/2018 at 00:53
I wouldn't necessarily say that the WWE is weak as they have a talented roster...but sometimes I feel like the writing can leave a lot to be desired. Things have become both predictable and stale to me and I'm not a big fan of what they're doing with Matt Hardy right now. (Impact approached Hardy differently. For the gimmick to work, you need his compound and you need the small segments as those were the things that made it entertaining.)

On the flip side, I love the matches in NJPW...but sometimes I feel like the storylines could have a bit more to them. Really I would love to see a mix of good storytelling and good wrestling...Unfortunately that hasn't really been a thing in a while. I think ECW, WCW and 90's WWE had it right though.


Edited by Sowhat? - 15/January/2018 at 00:54
It's impossible to know all of the details of the Wrestling business...So, how about instead of being a pretend booker we all go back to being fans?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14/January/2018 at 21:53
WWE is also healthier than ever before, they're treating their performers better than ever, even if it still has a long ways to go there. The Network is very good quality for the money. Their charities are doing well, and basically anything and everything you could possibly want from a company WWE are doing right... except giving you a good product. They are a wrestling company producing television shows and their television shows are godawful pieces of crap. Everyone says their live events are far better these days, and that's the opposite of how things used to be back when I was a kid and the live events were a waste of fucking money, but Prime Time Wrestling was the thing to see.

To me this just points to a necessity of a truly viable alternative to WWE that's at least the caliber of WCW circa 1995-1998. The RoH/NJPW partnership has the possibility of just doing that in 5-10 years. Hell next year they could take a significant jump forward if Daniel Bryan jumps ship and goes to RoH to wrestle again. That's also about the time Dolph Ziggler's contract is up too. Plus whatever is going on with Neville, if they were to all go to RoH, and RoH was able to find the money to pay them, they may very well make a good return on their money grow such that Wrestle Kingdom 13 would be even better still. I mean Omega vs Danielson? Yes please! And again, big IF but IF Jericho were at WK13, as well as Omega, as well as Danielson, as well as Ziggler, as well as Cody, as well as Neville? Fuck dude, WrestleMania ain't got a chance in hell of competing with that. So then let's just say that does for some miracle happen, at that point a return of CM Punk to RoH/NJPW is not a huge stretch to imagine.

Ultimately if someone can actually put forth a truly good product, one that just blows WWE, in particular NXT Takeover events out of the water WWE will start feeling the blowback of their shit product being neglected and running through Vince for so long.

And there's the kicker. NXT Takeover events don't go through Vince. They go through Triple H and they've been strong throughout their entire history. They're the reason hardcore fans stick around. They see all these fantastic shows in NXT, get attached to these new up and coming stars, and then see them head to Raw/Smackdown and naively hope to see them become big names on the main roster. Until something changes there in the minds of the fans, I don't see anything good happening for another company no matter how good their product is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MUSA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14/January/2018 at 21:35
To your point, as a company (if you are defining success by their financials) is doing well.  I think a driving force is this...

Nostalgia sells to the die-hards.  The WWE network, 9 out of 10 times, is catering to the die-hards who just want to watch the library of things.  I got rid of my subscription about 2 years ago because I can't stand the company.  I hate how these kinds of companies run.  They rip out all of their uniqueness to placate to their investors - and people just feed them more money.  The only way these companies fix the problem is if you hit them in their wallet.

As a company, they are cutting costs to supplement their bottom dollar.  But at what cost?  The destruction of their creativity, the exploitation of this "independent contractor" bullshit (where they are "independent", but answer to WWE like salaried employees and get no benefits), and their template-like, marketing-driven creative direction.

But, people are stupid these days and they'll keep watching.  I really don't think WWE will ever see financial issues because they do "just enough" to shut the die-hards up, and WWE die-hards, for some reason, can take a beating more than any other fandom (well, maybe Star Wars fans can take a harsher beating).  I'll never understand that brand loyalty.  To me, a brand is only as good as their last show - and if they suck for a period of time, I'm done with them.  Why stay loyal?  They aren't providing me the entertainment, so why should I support them?

I hope that you're right, and they do see a dip in financials.  But it's clear that the merch and digital sales, coupled by their exploitative contracts and cost-cutting measures, are supplementing them enough to hide their lower ticket sales.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14/January/2018 at 21:14
WWE as a company has never been better.

It's purely creative that's the issue.

They need to understand their audience better, and who is their lifeblood. Casual fans give them the most money, but for every 3-5 casual fans that attends a live event, there is 1 hardcore fan demanding they accompany them, and without that 1 hardcore fan bringing others along, the casuals wouldn't be there at all. That's how it is with live events and with television and with subscribers as well.

So instead of worrying about being PC and appealing to everyone they need to go after their hardcore fans and give them what they're after and the casuals will follow like the sheep that they are. When I rant and rave over someone or some storyline my whole family takes an interest with me, and I'll bet you anything that's how it is with most everyone else these days.

WWE is NOT in a place where you have poser fans like during the attitude era and they're just fans of such and such a wrestler (IE Stone Cold, or Goldberg) because they're pop-culture cool. There is only 1 man these days that is actually that good, and that's The Rock. Chris Jericho and John Cena are the only other guys that even belong in the conversation. That's why a woman like Ronda Rousey is so damned important to the WWE, she brings in new fans because of her celebrity status. MAYBE following the Royal Rumble the WWE will see in influx of women who call themselves fans of the WWE because of Rousey... maybe, and it's worth WWE's money to invest in that gamble. 

And they're doing just that. Why? Because as I say, WWE as a company is in absolute top form.

What worries me is that they'll invest in Rousey and do something stupid, and piss off the life-long hardcore fans and just keep doing it over and over and over again until sooner or later their company does suffer. But if it ever happens it will come from the fact that the product they put forth is absolute garbage. Creative is their Achilles heel and if WWE does anything wrong these days it comes from their undervaluing the impact the quality of their own product has on the rest of their business.
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