TUP Wrestling Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Wrestling > A Writer's Perspective
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Something That Is Lacking in Wrestling Today
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Something That Is Lacking in Wrestling Today

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 7>
Author
Message
Collywog3:16 View Drop Down
PB Members
PB Members
Avatar
Ticket Wars Trading Shark

Joined: 13/December/2012
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3783
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Collywog3:16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/October/2013 at 16:10
What I personally believe is missing from wrestling isn't the little things like blood and swearing. I can accept the fact that this is not the attitude era any more. I can live with out stuff like that. What's missing is getting fans emotionally invested into a storyline or a character. I mean there are just so many switches to heel and face along with a title being passed around like freaking pass the pascal, you just can't keep track of what's going on and you are left wondering why one minute some is being pushed to the moon and then all of sudden sinks down to the bottom of the card and loses all momentum because it was killed off for apparently no reason. Everyone gets jumbled in the mix. I can look up and down the WWE roster of today's talent pool and see guys who destined to be either jobbers for life or stuck floating around in the middle of the card. I see maybe one or two true main renters. I don't think people necessarily miss the Attitude Era because of hardcore violence and sexual themes, they are ones who would be crying out for the day's of Randy Savage, Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior too. WWE are afraid to take risks which I think puts a lot of people off.

Back to Top
HBKDX97 View Drop Down
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Avatar
Winner of Ticket War VI

Joined: 11/November/2010
Location: US
Status: Offline
Points: 11160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HBKDX97 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/October/2013 at 18:10
I think what is lacking in wrestling is a fan base that doesn't insert its own ego into the product. "Wrestling fans" can't just shut the fuck up and enjoy a show anymore, they have to critique and nitpick every little thing that they don't know about.

We don't do it as much here (with a few exceptions) but it's fucking everywhere.
Back to Top
Rico Len View Drop Down
PB Members
PB Members
Avatar
Three Time TW Winner (X, XII, XIII)

Joined: 23/October/2012
Location: Yosemite Lakes
Status: Online
Points: 11246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/October/2013 at 18:25
I've said it time and again, the way they fix things especially in the WWE is shorter promo segments and less recaps. The matches are just about perfect, though it would be nice to have a few title matches here and there, especially mid-card titles as the main event.

What is truly lacking is time spent on the mid-card. I love that there is some legitimate time being spent on the tag team division, but I want very much to see Dean Ambrose defend his title on Raw every couple of weeks, and the same with Curtis Axel (or perhaps after today R-Truth) with the Intercontinental Championship.

I'm tired of seeing the World Heavyweight Champion having exhibition (non-title) matches. I'm tired of spending all the time in the world hyping the WWE Championship match. If the match is really that good it will sell itself with a go-home show that focuses primarily on that match the way Raw already focuses on that match every single night.

IMO The night after a PPV should focus on setting up the next WWE and WHC title matches, while the matches themselves should be #1 contenders matches or the like for all the various titles. The next few episodes of Raw before the go-home show should focus on mid-card titles, tag, diva, US, and IC, to set up those feuds, hype the matches, get us interested, showcase themselves in the ring as well, with short little promos or segments with the WWE and WHC title scene, and perhaps during long durations between PPVs (say 5 weeks or more) then during the middle give the WWE and WHC titles another episode of primary focus, then on the go-home show return to the WWE and WHC titles to set up the PPV properly.

It would certainly be a lot better than seeing 4-6 episodes where it's all about the WWE and WHC titles week in week out. The main event is getting over-exposed, and I'd much rather see an episode or two in the middle during the 'filler' weeks where the US, IC, and Tag champions get the main event promo time, as well as (for the most part) throw-away title defenses, with an occasional title change thrown in a time or 3 a year. Not only that but it gives the main event guys a little bit of much needed rest.

Quote I don't think people necessarily miss the Attitude Era because of hardcore violence and sexual themes, they are ones who would be crying out for the day's of Randy Savage, Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior too. WWE are afraid to take risks which I think puts a lot of people off.

Actually I disagree. During that time, the guys that wanted to see Savage, Hogan, and Warrior watched WCW (like me), the rest watched the WWF.

I do however think it's time that WWE allows people to take risks on the mic, and adopt an attitude of "Sure go out and cut your promo, say what you wanna say, but keep in mind, if you go overboard and do too much, you're gonna get censored and buried in booking." It would keep the same kind of control writing their lines for them affords the WWE management, but allows the wrestlers a chance to be themselves, within certain obvious limits, and cut a much more natural promo.

Originally posted by HBKDX97 HBKDX97 wrote:

I think what is lacking in wrestling is a fan base that doesn't insert its own ego into the product. "Wrestling fans" can't just shut the fuck up and enjoy a show anymore, they have to critique and nitpick every little thing that they don't know about.

We don't do it as much here (with a few exceptions) but it's fucking everywhere.


I can't tell you how many times I used to tell people to STFU sit down and enjoy the show back in my 'other' forum days in 2011. 2011 was so good, and people at that other site just bitched and moaned non-stop about this that and the other thing, and why things should be booked completely different (Kane should be a monster again and be WWE champion, Cena MUST turn heel, Zack Ryder needs to be pushed, etc) and the posts were so full of contempt it was pathetic, yet I was sitting back going, "Dude this is the best I've seen the WWE in years and years, angles take a while to set up and materialize, give it time and just enjoy the show."


Edited by Rico Len - 06/October/2013 at 18:30
Back to Top
Raven View Drop Down
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Avatar
TUP Mr. 200,000!

Joined: 03/September/2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 16067
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/October/2013 at 18:43
Colly, you talk some bullshit.

You can't say you love the Attitude Era, and then bitch about how often title changes occur. We're less than a year removed from CM Punk's 434 days, and the longest of Rock's eight title runs happened this year.

As for being pushed to the top of the card and falling back down, talk to Rikishi about that one.

WWE takes risks all the time. The pipe bomb was probably the single riskiest promo in history. AJ got to do a Divas version. They've green-lighted a reality show that breaks kayfabe. They've pushed CM Punk and Daniel Bryan - who are the type of wrestlers who have never been big draws - to the top of the card. They've run PPVs without their top star appearing, WHILE HE'S HEALTHY. I don't recall WWE doing that during Stone Cold's time on top, and that was with far more roster depth than we have now.

The product is fine and this is the way wrestling has always been pretty much, if not better, people just get nostalgic and talk out of their assholes.
Back to Top
HBKDX97 View Drop Down
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Avatar
Winner of Ticket War VI

Joined: 11/November/2010
Location: US
Status: Offline
Points: 11160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HBKDX97 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/October/2013 at 18:54
Originally posted by Raven Raven wrote:


The product is fine and this is the way wrestling has always been pretty much, if not better, people just get nostalgic and talk out of their assholes.


A-fucking-men. Preach it, brother.
Back to Top
Rico Len View Drop Down
PB Members
PB Members
Avatar
Three Time TW Winner (X, XII, XIII)

Joined: 23/October/2012
Location: Yosemite Lakes
Status: Online
Points: 11246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/October/2013 at 19:59
The product is fine < the product is great.

I do agree that for as far the things Colly was discussing, this is more or less how it's always been. Also I think the product today is better than it has been in years and years. However, while the main event seems a bit fresh thanks in no small part to Cena and Sheamus being out for a few months, they are still over-exposed. We're getting the third exact same main event in a row for a PPV between Bryan and Orton. That's ridiculous.

In the meantime Big Show especially but CM Punk as well has been flip-flopping back and forth between heel and face, and Big Show so much so that it really is hard to take him seriously. In CM Punks case he's been flip-flopping back and forth about at the same pace that has been set over the last 15-20 years. Everyone just assumes Big Show's going to be the big bad show in a few weeks time, and then following that in another few months I don't see any reason not to believe he'll be the genial giant once again. Punk could easily be a heel at WM facing off against Daniel Bryan for the title. And maybe that's NOT a real big deal but it is kinda silly.

Also, he talks about guys climbing to the top and then falling into obscurity, and you yourself Raven were a mark for The Miz, and now because of his fall from WWE Champ in 2011 state he'll likely never recover. That has far more to do with booking than it does Miz's ability itself. Either Miz was pushed too high for his ability to deserve, in which case that's bad booking, or he had the ability and has subsequently been buried thanks to bad booking. In either case Miz is a victim of bad booking.

However, I do agree that WWE is taking some very well calculated risks in the case of guys like Punk and Bryan. But they also really need to take some risks in regard to what I mentioned about allowing guys to cut their own promos and sink or swim as a result of their own talent rather than have to memorize I wooden script that doesn't reflect who they really are.


Edited by Rico Len - 06/October/2013 at 20:05
Back to Top
thundarr2000 View Drop Down
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
Avatar

Joined: 13/June/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 15338
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote thundarr2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/October/2013 at 21:42
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

I've said it time and again, the way they fix things especially in the WWE is shorter promo segments and less recaps. The matches are just about perfect, though it would be nice to have a few title matches here and there, especially mid-card titles as the main event.
 
For me it's about balance. WWE has always been the promotion that depended upon promos over in-ring storytelling. But at times there hasn't been any balance between those two elements of storytelling. WWE got promo-heavy when the in-ring storytelling dipped. It's safe to assume that all backstage segments are pre-taped. WWE got into the habit of doing a lot of pre-tapes because they lacked faith in guys' ability to cut live promos in front of the crowds.  

The in-ring storytelling has really improved in the WWE. It's the best it has been in years. There's a whole slew of guys that really excel at it. 

However... when there's numerous backstage segments in a row (especially on Raw) it really takes the crowd out of it. It more than cools the crowd, it practically freezes them. 

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

What is truly lacking is time spent on the mid-card. I love that there is some legitimate time being spent on the tag team division, but I want very much to see Dean Ambrose defend his title on Raw every couple of weeks, and the same with Curtis Axel (or perhaps after today R-Truth) with the Intercontinental Championship.

I'm tired of seeing the World Heavyweight Champion having exhibition (non-title) matches. I'm tired of spending all the time in the world hyping the WWE Championship match. If the match is really that good it will sell itself with a go-home show that focuses primarily on that match the way Raw already focuses on that match every single night.
Agree on the midcard titles. There's a lot of grumbling about the WWE roster not being "deep enough." Fortunately, there's Main Event and Superstars to give the midcard guys some screen time. Although those aren't high profile appearances and those shows tend to be light on on-going storylines.

The non-title match has some history to it. A guy gets a win over the champion and earns a title shot. But all things it's about moderation. Wade Barrett's last IC run was filled with non-title matches; worse yet he lost those matches constantly but nothing happened as a result.

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

It would certainly be a lot better than seeing 4-6 episodes where it's all about the WWE and WHC titles week in week out. The main event is getting over-exposed, and I'd much rather see an episode or two in the middle during the 'filler' weeks where the US, IC, and Tag champions get the main event promo time, as well as (for the most part) throw-away title defenses, with an occasional title change thrown in a time or 3 a year. Not only that but it gives the main event guys a little bit of much needed rest.
Agree on that. Let's remember that most of time Raw & SmackDown have dark main events, so WWE can always use those if they really need the big title matches to sell tickets. But given how expensive PPV shows are, it would make sense to spend a little time to build up all the stories beyond just one short segment on the go-home show.

Originally posted by Collwog3:16 Collwog3:16 wrote:

I don't think people necessarily miss the Attitude Era because of hardcore violence and sexual themes, they are ones who would be crying out for the day's of Randy Savage, Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior too. WWE are afraid to take risks which I think puts a lot of people off.
Yes, WWF at that time was willing to take a lot more creative risks. So was WCW and ECW, and we know how things turned out with them. But it's also important to remember that the audience is completely different. As much as the minority of fans that compose the majority of IWC whine about bringing back the Attitude Era, they are missing the fact that the current WWE audience wouldn't accept that stuff. 

Originally posted by HBKDX97 HBKDX97 wrote:

I think what is lacking in wrestling is a fan base that doesn't insert its own ego into the product. "Wrestling fans" can't just shut the fuck up and enjoy a show anymore, they have to critique and nitpick every little thing that they don't know about. 

We don't do it as much here (with a few exceptions) but it's fucking everywhere.
 

I can't tell you how many times I used to tell people to STFU sit down and enjoy the show back in my 'other' forum days in 2011. 2011 was so good, and people at that other site just bitched and moaned non-stop about this that and the other thing, and why things should be booked completely different (Kane should be a monster again and be WWE champion, Cena MUST turn heel, Zack Ryder needs to be pushed, etc) and the posts were so full of contempt it was pathetic, yet I was sitting back going, "Dude this is the best I've seen the WWE in years and years, angles take a while to set up and materialize, give it time and just enjoy the show."[/QUOTE]
As a fan we all have the right to have our own opinions and to express them. But the core reason that no major promotion will ever "listen to the fans" is that (overall) the IWC is a cynical and fickle lot. Nothing is ever good enough for them, the main event guys are all over-exposed and boring, the low-card guys are always "under-appreciated" and being "held down."

Think about this. John Cena is on the shelf mostly likely for the remainder of the year. But despite the IWC constantly whining about Cena, they aren't applauding the WWE's efforts to move forward with a Cena-less product. Instead the IWC is now bitching about other things like Ziggler's booking. The most vocal segment of the IWC never likes anything.

I've never accepted being label a member of the IWC. The term Internet Wrestling Community lacks a very important word: fan. I still consider myself a fan. I want to enjoy the show. I don't watch when I think I won't be entertained.
Back to Top
Rico Len View Drop Down
PB Members
PB Members
Avatar
Three Time TW Winner (X, XII, XIII)

Joined: 23/October/2012
Location: Yosemite Lakes
Status: Online
Points: 11246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/October/2013 at 23:20
Originally posted by thundarr2000 thundarr2000 wrote:

For me it's about balance. WWE has always been the promotion that depended upon promos over in-ring storytelling. But at times there hasn't been any balance between those two elements of storytelling. WWE got promo-heavy when the in-ring storytelling dipped. It's safe to assume that all backstage segments are pre-taped. WWE got into the habit of doing a lot of pre-tapes because they lacked faith in guys' ability to cut live promos in front of the crowds.  

The in-ring storytelling has really improved in the WWE. It's the best it has been in years. There's a whole slew of guys that really excel at it. 

However... when there's numerous backstage segments in a row (especially on Raw) it really takes the crowd out of it. It more than cools the crowd, it practically freezes them.


I agree, except that I think 20 minutes of match and then 20 minutes of video promos, backstage segments, slam of the week & commercial breaks, then we're not getting the kind of balance that's required to keep from freezing the crowd. IMO Less time spent doing that so that the ratio is different than 1:1 is how to really get the right kind of balance.

Originally posted by thundarr2000 thundarr2000 wrote:


As a fan we all have the right to have our own opinions and to express them. But the core reason that no major promotion will ever "listen to the fans" is that (overall) the IWC is a cynical and fickle lot. Nothing is ever good enough for them, the main event guys are all over-exposed and boring, the low-card guys are always "under-appreciated" and being "held down."

Think about this. John Cena is on the shelf mostly likely for the remainder of the year. But despite the IWC constantly whining about Cena, they aren't applauding the WWE's efforts to move forward with a Cena-less product. Instead the IWC is now bitching about other things like Ziggler's booking. The most vocal segment of the IWC never likes anything.

I've never accepted being label a member of the IWC. The term Internet Wrestling Community lacks a very important word: fan. I still consider myself a fan. I want to enjoy the show. I don't watch when I think I won't be entertained.


I never used to either until just recently. Technically speaking we're wrestling fans talking about wrestling on the internet, so that makes us the internet wrestling community.

However while I agree with everything you're saying, it occurs to me that perhaps some of it has to do with perception. Because I know I am bitching about Ziggler's booking, but I am also very happy to be where we are with everything wide open in terms of who can grab a spot in the main event.

I think it would be good for... possibly all wrestling fans really, if we took a bit of time out of all our bitching to actually praise what is going well today. I know I TRY to do that, and I think that's something a lot of people don't seem to do, but I think I could definitely do a better job of sitting back and enjoying what we do have.

EDIT: NOTE TO MODERATOR/ADMIN
Why isn't my second quote working? Open this post and see for yourself.


Edited by Rico Len - 06/October/2013 at 23:25
Back to Top
Willy1225 View Drop Down
PB Members
PB Members
Avatar
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator

Joined: 30/December/2010
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 10403
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Willy1225 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/October/2013 at 23:27
I started this thread two years ago because wrestling is lacking violence and two years later that still is a problem. Wrestling was never meant to be PG and wwe and TNA (fuck you Bruce Pritchard for that), are both very sterile products.

Colly talking about how you can't connect to these wrestlers well that's because none of them are being physically decimated to the point you can really feel there pain. Daniel Bryan got the same generic beatdown for a month. It was a standard beatdown you see 10000 times a year. No blood, no chairs no real brutality. Just a triple power bomb on the canvas and/or a Big Show punch. No one has to miss time due to a vicious beatdown, no one selling a vicious beatdown with taped ribs or a taped shoulder. Daniel Bryan gets laid out to end Raw, then the beginning of Smackdown he is doing a promo with HHH completely fine. Because of that, why should I care that he got beaten up on Raw if he is fine four days later?

The other reason wrestlers can't connect to the audience (in both companies) is that everyone (outside of a few and shockingly enough they are over) is a generic character. What is the difference between Dolph Ziggler and Kofi Kingston besides skin color? What is the difference between Damien Sandow and Alberto Del Rio? (Im talking about character, in ring style and even outfit styles) There is a reason why crazy Goldust in black and gold face paint draws a reaction that is 10 times more than the rest of the wwe midcard, it's because he is different from all the rest. Same reason why Cody's mustache got over. It was unlike any performer in the wwe universe.

i was watching Armageddon 1999 the other day and that roster from top to bottom was full of diverse characters who acted differently and dressed differently from all the rest. Everyone stood out because everyone was different from a personality standpoint or even as small as a weird outfit they wrestled in. The Dudley boys had their tye dye shirts, the Mean Street Posse had their sweater vests, the Hardy's had their painter pants and skin tight shirts, The Odfather had his Ho's, D'Lo Brown had his singlet and his cool little head bob, Val Venis had his porn star gimmick, the British Bulldog was wrestling in jeans and just looked badass, hell the generic Steve Blackman stood out because he was generic in a sea of non generic wrestlers/gimmicks/outfits etc, Mankind wrestled in his shirt and tie, Road Dogg wrestled in his DX jersey, the Hollys were super heavyweights, Rikishi and Viscera were just fat guys, Kurt Angle was his All-American asshole self wrestling in red white and blue, the Big Boss Man was wrestling in his cop gear that The Shield totally stole from him.

Point is every guy who wrestled on that throw away card from 1999 looked different and acted different from all the rest and most of them were over with the crowd that night. You knew the difference between The Dudley Boys and The Acolytes even though both wrestled the same style. Today with Dolph Ziggler and a Kofi Kingston, you really don't know the difference between those two generic faces.

Bringing back diverse midcard characters would help get everyone on the wwe roster over with their universe. Problem is wwe is too lazy to do that.


Edited by Willy1225 - 06/October/2013 at 23:29
TNA Would Be Nothing Without #TeamDixie

Back to Top
Collywog3:16 View Drop Down
PB Members
PB Members
Avatar
Ticket Wars Trading Shark

Joined: 13/December/2012
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3783
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Collywog3:16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/October/2013 at 01:40
I never said I never liked the Attitude Era, I loved it. Even though I wasn't around to experience it first hand, I can safely say that I would sit back and watch some of there stuff all day.


I'm just saying that some us need to accept the fact that's it's gone and focus on building new stars if today for a brighter. That's just not going happen when you basically have a roster that are all same generic people. I agree with Willy, what is a difference with most of them besides appearance. They have a push and then stop. A couple months fly by or so then it's push, then stops again. This cycle just keeps repeating and in the end is does squat for the talent involved. Judy look at guys like Ryback, Dolph Ziggler, among various others who could be notified main eventer's right and serious contenders for championships, but instead float around the roster because WWE thought that "Well just to be safe, let's keep the belt on Cena." It's been that way for awhile now. Sure, I'll give them their due, they've taken risks on guys like CM Punk and look how that turned out for them. Punk is a mega star. They did the same thing with Austin, Rock, Angle, Jericho, Kane etc. in the Attitude Era and it turned out wonderful, but maybe that's everything coming together and clicking at the right time.

I'm not saying we should have a game of pass the pascal with the title to try and figure out whose the guy. But there needs to be more people who stand out rather then who just mix in with the crowd.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 7>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.061 seconds.