Print Page | Close Window

WORLD TITLE NO. 3

Printed From: TUP Wrestling Forum
Category: Wrestling
Forum Name: Ring Of Honor
Forum Description: Based out of Pennsylvania and available to watch every Monday night on HDNet. Your place to talk about all the hard hitting action taking place in the number one independent company.
URL: http://www.tupwrestlingforum.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=19165
Printed Date: 09/December/2019 at 00:52
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: WORLD TITLE NO. 3
Posted By: stipe
Subject: WORLD TITLE NO. 3
Date Posted: 23/August/2013 at 09:16
BAD ENGLISH WARNING !!!

North America always had 3 World titles, and by always I mean since 60,s when WWWF and AWA pulled out of NWA.

When AWA folded in 1991, third spot was empty for couple of years till Shane Douglas dumped NWA Coraluzzo World title in garbage, declaring ECW title as legit no. 3. belt, behind WWF and WCW.

Than cca 2001-02, WCW and ECW folded and WWE had the only legit title (2 of them) untill TNA rightfully claimed title no. 2., and spot no. 3. was taken by RING OF HONOR.

ROH deserved no.3. title and I consider them as legit World title, since they have good product, good workrate and protect the bussiness.

I still think that Jay Briscoe was best choice for World champion, as Austin like badass fan favorite with goofy bro as a sidekick, but anyway - his boss was gay and Jay was fired for comments he made - being himself, the same guy privately and in charachter - the same reason that made Jay great.

Ok, he was stripped and good people of TUP didn,t care.

I rarely post any new topics because of my bad english, so I didn,t do anything.

Than ROH  made 16 man World title tournament - and you guys didn,t care again.

I wanted to post some comments, but no one posted any topics.

I thought that Tournament was done wrong, with 16 same guys as always, not only in ROH but in PWG, CZW, Chikara - no matter how good they are - and they are the best what indy scene has to offer.

I would put a Japanese guy in, than a Mexican luchador, than former TV star like Morrison or Carlito, but no - they had their own crew and didn,t care about making it big and international.

My point being - I feel sorry for ROH, since they are running World title tournament and no one posted any ROH topic in months.

As I understand, they have Adam Cole vs. Tomasso Ciampa and Steen vs Elgin for finals.

I didn,t see Ciampa coming, but I would guess the other 3 for sure.

Cole did good as a PWG champ and he is good wrestler, cocky all american heel who would be paired with Steen and Elgin since they are both good wrestlers and Canadian market is huge and important.

So, I finally did that. I posted ROH topic.

I would like to know: WHY YOU GUYS DON,T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT ROH.

 


-------------
Still real to me dammit !



Replies:
Posted By: thundarr2000
Date Posted: 23/August/2013 at 22:15
At several times North American wrestling has claimed more than 3 world titles. Even now there's more than 3 legit world heavyweight championships.

To clarify I used the following criteria to define a true world heavyweight championship title:
  1. It must be the promotion's top heavyweight championship.
  2. It must be defended internationally.

With that in mind, I would say the current legit North American world heavyweight championships:

  • WWE Championship - the historic World Heavyweight title of the company, the title has been defended in more countries than can easily be counted.
  • TNA World Heavyweight Championship - has been defended in Japan and throughout Europe.
  • AAA World Heavyweight Championship - has been defended in Japan and throughout Latin America. 
  • CMLL World Heavyweight Championship - has been defended in Japan and throughout Latin America.
  • NWA World Heavyweight Championship - these days the title has more value in Japan, Australia and Mexico than the US.
  • CZW World Heavyweight Championship - they have defended this one in Mexico.
  • ROH World Heavyweight Championship - has been defended in Canada at least once.

Historically I don't count the USWA Unified World Heavyweight Championship; as that was rarely defended outside of Memphis title and Arkansas doesn't count as "international." As far as I know the original ECW World Heavyweight Championship was never defended internationally; so it wasn't a true world title.

Originally posted by stipe stipe wrote:

I would like to know: WHY YOU GUYS DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT ROH.
For me, I don't enjoy their product. I think they look cheap. 

ROH come across as being bush league. Their TV show looks like it was recorded in a basement. They can't hold onto their talent; half of their roster has tried out for WWE in recent months. Their "serious" wrestling gimmick is used as an excuse for having nonsensical matches.

Overall it looks like they don't reinvest in their product. If they don't care enough to invest in their product, then why should I care to emotional invest myself in their product? 




Posted By: John The Baptist
Date Posted: 23/August/2013 at 23:16
Originally posted by stipe stipe wrote:

I would like to know: WHY YOU GUYS DON,T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT ROH.



- shitty little carny fed
- founded by a pedophile, so ironic that they tour school gyms
- riddled with vanilla midgets
- most generic names ever (Adam Cole? really?)
- every match is KIK CHOP KIK CHOP KIK CHOP BENOIT SUPLEXES PILEDRIVER OFF TOP ROPE FOR A 2 COUNT SUPERKICK
- Davey Richards is the worst wrestler on Earth, or any other planet
- Kevin Steen is a fat shit
- their fans are slobs who try and get themselves over by chanting stupid shit, also virgins
- looks like it was shot on a Motorola flip phone
- Matt Hardy. Lol.
- matches are all hour long time limit draws
- they pretend wrestling is real and act like an MMA company
- Jim Cornette is an old bitter cunt
- too many japs


-------------


Posted By: LennyComa
Date Posted: 24/August/2013 at 08:16
I don't care much For RoH, primarily because it looks cheap and 45 minute long matches get boring unless they do something more than Chop. kick. Headlock, off the ropes, sleep n leap, Miss the clothesline, Into a sleeper, to the mat, 10 mins of countering holds, repeat



-------------
We bashed the door in. The bad guy was a dick. I shot him


Posted By: John The Baptist
Date Posted: 24/August/2013 at 08:52
Theres a reason Jap wrestling companies died out, because nobody wants to see matches with more kicks than a JCVD straight to DVD action film......ROH mustnt of got the memo....

As for the main subject, ROH isn't a World title. Seth Rollins basically took a dump on the strap and said he was moving to the big leagues. Honestly the only way they could be any more small time is if they changed their ring for a matress and went all CZW.



-------------


Posted By: #Heel
Date Posted: 24/August/2013 at 10:14
Originally posted by John The Baptist John The Baptist wrote:

Originally posted by stipe stipe wrote:

I would like to know: WHY YOU GUYS DON,T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT ROH.



- shitty little carny fed
- founded by a pedophile, so ironic that they tour school gyms
- riddled with vanilla midgets
- most generic names ever (Adam Cole? really?)
- every match is KIK CHOP KIK CHOP KIK CHOP BENOIT SUPLEXES PILEDRIVER OFF TOP ROPE FOR A 2 COUNT SUPERKICK
- Davey Richards is the worst wrestler on Earth, or any other planet
- Kevin Steen is a fat shit
- their fans are slobs who try and get themselves over by chanting stupid shit, also virgins
- looks like it was shot on a Motorola flip phone
- Matt Hardy. Lol.
- matches are all hour long time limit draws
- they pretend wrestling is real and act like an MMA company
- Jim Cornette is an old bitter cunt
- too many japs

Probably the best description of ROH i've ever seen -it should be on the back of all of their DVD's 

Originally posted by stipe stipe wrote:

I would like to know: WHY YOU GUYS DON,T NO ONE GIVES A DAMN ABOUT ROH.
 

Fixed - although not technically true - they do have about 30 fans - infact i wouldnt be surprised if you were one of these fucking idiots :

Quote   http://rohworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18793&sid=8324369153ddd91d9708bbe7574012cd#p18793" rel="nofollow">Post by  http://rohworld.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=65&sid=8324369153ddd91d9708bbe7574012cd" rel="nofollow - syxxpakk  ยป Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
I'll echo the that Mulkey. The content is, in my eyes, easily above that of Impact or RAW or Smackdown. The production? Not so much, but again YMMV.


ROHworld (the shittest wrestling forum to ever exist)





-------------
https://imgbb.com/" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Collywog3:16
Date Posted: 24/August/2013 at 10:39
Well technically speaking, WWE has two World Championships; the World Heavyweight Championship (the Big Gold Belt) and the WWE Championship. Obviously, the latter is considered to be much more prestigious, however, I find the World Heavyweight Championship to be far more prestigious then the TNA World Heavyweight Championship simply because of its rich history and impact on the business. 

The World Heavyweight Championship has been around since 1905, has gone through various promotions during its lineage, including the NWA, WCW and WWF/E. So to me, the two top prizes in the world of professional, let along North American, is the two currently in WWE, the World Heavyweight Championship (the Big Gold Belt) and the WWE Championship. No matter how others may see the Big Gold Gold as being a secondary title.

    


-------------


Posted By: EdgeHead
Date Posted: 25/August/2013 at 06:28
Originally posted by stipe stipe wrote:



I still think that Jay Briscoe was best choice for World champion, as Austin like badass fan favorite with goofy bro as a sidekick, but anyway - his boss was gay and Jay was fired for comments he made - being himself, the same guy privately and in charachter - the same reason that made Jay great.

You're kidding me, right? You just didn't compare Jay Briscoe to "Stone Cold" Steve Austin? I understand what you meant but, c'mon man.


Posted By: HBKDX97
Date Posted: 25/August/2013 at 15:39
I'm trolling the ROH forum as we speak. Bawgod is this about to get fun.

-------------


Posted By: bigfloridapimp
Date Posted: 26/August/2013 at 02:45
Owner of the forum....




Looks like Rocky Dennis.


-------------


Posted By: HBKDX97
Date Posted: 26/August/2013 at 02:49
HOLY SHIT HAHAHAHAHAHA THAT MADE ME FALL OUT OF MY FUCKING CHAIR.

-------------


Posted By: bigfloridapimp
Date Posted: 26/August/2013 at 02:54
Originally posted by HBKDX97 HBKDX97 wrote:

HOLY SHIT HAHAHAHAHAHA THAT MADE ME FALL OUT OF MY FUCKING CHAIR.
Ye. I can snoop pretty good when I feels like it.

-------------


Posted By: thundarr2000
Date Posted: 26/August/2013 at 05:08
Originally posted by HBKDX97 HBKDX97 wrote:

I'm trolling the ROH forum as we speak. Bawgod is this about to get fun.
I signed up there too for giggles. LOL 
 
I'm not sure if I should call the ROHbots passionate or pathetic. They repeatedly demonstrate that they can't deal with any criticism of ROH. No matter how well thought out. 

Russ gave them a little cheap heat. But then made some decent points in his criticism of ROH. But I swear none of them bothered to defend themselves or the company they repeated say they "love" HugInstead it was a bunch of 'go to the WWE forums' crap. 

Man, there's a reason that ROHbots don't get respect in the IWC. They can dish it but they can't take it. 


Posted By: HBKDX97
Date Posted: 26/August/2013 at 05:18
That's how you do it. I'm treating this as an exercise in heel work. Get the crowd firmly behind the babyface quickly, set the heat steadily throughout the match, let them get some comebacks to give the crowd a chance to hope for the best, and then break their hearts in the end.


-------------


Posted By: Rico Len
Date Posted: 26/August/2013 at 05:37
I have never seen ROH, by the sounds of it, it is a bad company on the whole, but hearing some of the descriptions of the matches make me think I might actually like watching the matches. I have finally officially given up on TNA, it is just plain crap as far as I am concerned, but ROH? Maybe if it were actually on TV I might watch it and give it a try.

-------------


Posted By: bigfloridapimp
Date Posted: 26/August/2013 at 05:44
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

I have never seen ROH, by the sounds of it, it is a bad company on the whole, but hearing some of the descriptions of the matches make me think I might actually like watching the matches. I have finally officially given up on TNA, it is just plain crap as far as I am concerned, but ROH? Maybe if it were actually on TV I might watch it and give it a try.
It's not THAT bad. It used to be very good, but not so much anymore. It's like watching Japanese or Mexican wrestling. If you can just watch a few matches you will probably enjoy it, but since you have no clue what is going on you can only watch so much of it.

-------------


Posted By: thundarr2000
Date Posted: 26/August/2013 at 15:25
That's a great way to summarize it BFP. Clap

ROH really got hit hard as they top talent was routinely poached. Not just by WWE and TNA, but also New Japan and other international companies. It makes it look like ROH can't pay their guys a decent wage.

There is a different style at play with ROH. Some people look at lucha libre and just see random high spots. Other people see ballet coming off the top rope. Of course a lot of those differences are due to culture.

I look at ROH and I'm not emotionally hooked by any of it. I don't sympathize with any babyface and I don't hate any of the heels. They are just... there.






Posted By: Rico Len
Date Posted: 26/August/2013 at 17:04
Well personally I prefer chain wrestling where people trade hold for hold counter for counter. I always have, British Bulldog's title matches against the Hart brothers are two of my very favorite ever, I also very much loved Dolph Ziggler vs Daniel Bryan at Bragging Rights 2010. To me it is what wrestling is all about. Sure the Goldbergs and Warriors and Hogans are fun to watch, but at the end of the day I want the Hitmans and Kurt Angles who can wrestle you to the mat, and stretch you until you squeal like a pig - or a trainee in the Hart Dungeon.

I think that's why I'm getting so big into my ticket wars card this season. The first golden age of wrestling was all about being a talented mat technician. High spots are nice, and I crave seeing more high impact moves (not through TLCs, just straight to the mat), which is why I'm digging the last few weeks I've seen ToF wrestle on Raw. It looks weird by those guys, but it's so nice seeing a pumphandle slam followed by a belly to belly suplex, and then a scoop slam all in rapid succession. The other thing I dig about the first golden age is instead of using kicks and chops to help move an opponent into position they would just grapple and walk. So simple but it looked far more realistic and much more legit.

After reading what you guys are saying, it appears to be a LOT of that kind of thing (minus the power moves) going on in RoH. I'm down with a 45 minute time limit draw as long as the show is good. Wins and losses don't matter, we all know that, so why does it matter to us fans when the match ends in a draw from time to time? To me that builds legitimacy of competition. Granted IF that's all that happens then that's kind of a pisser, but I don't think time limit draws are bad. I loved Rude vs Roberts at WM4, and it just made me believe they were equals.

If everyone is a face, well that's kinda weird but I'd have to see for myself before I made any real judgement. That might be ok with me too depending on the storytelling in the ring. I badly miss the days when Pro-Wrestling was actually treated like a sporting competition and not a 'show' or a place to fight over personal differences.

Am I really the only one that thinks all you need is a good kayfabe win/loss record and a desire for the title to justify a match? Or do we always have to have someone insult someone else's mother before they can have a wrestling match?

Again, I've never watched, so I'm am just making blind assumptions, but based on the information I've got from reading this thread it sounds like RoH has bad looking wrestlers a pedophile founder, but a very solid mat wrestling foundation with old school roots the way pro-wrestling was originally intended to be.

To me that sounds better than TNA where they bullshit you by saying wrestling matters and then everything is about some personal grudge or a lameduck version of the nWo invasion. I haven't seen much of anything from TNA to prove to me that it's in-ring product is better than WWE's certainly not from it's vaunted Knockouts Division, and certainly not from the x-division or anything else. Not even Kurt Angle looks any different or better than something I'd see from Lesnar and/or Bryan. And Kurt Angle is one of those rare hybrids that can wrestle two very different types of matches brilliantly, like Scott Hall, only Angle was even better than Hall.


-------------


Posted By: thundarr2000
Date Posted: 27/August/2013 at 01:41
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

I'm down with a 45 minute time limit draw as long as the show is good. 
Ric Flair vs. Sting at Clash of Champions springs to mind. But those sort of matches require to have 2 really good guys otherwise the match will completely drag at some point. 

I haven't seen any good chain wrestling on ROH, but I don't check it out that much. The last couple of ROH matches I wanted just didn't make any sense. There didn't seem to be any story within the match. The bumps were weak and the spots didn't flow together in any way.


Posted By: bigfloridapimp
Date Posted: 27/August/2013 at 01:51
Originally posted by thundarr2000 thundarr2000 wrote:

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

I'm down with a 45 minute time limit draw as long as the show is good. 
Ric Flair vs. Sting at Clash of Champions springs to mind. But those sort of matches require to have 2 really good guys otherwise the match will completely drag at some point. 

I haven't seen any good chain wrestling on ROH, but I don't check it out that much. The last couple of ROH matches I wanted just didn't make any sense. There didn't seem to be any story within the match. The bumps were weak and the spots didn't flow together in any way.
It's cliche but try the Joe/Punk matches.

-------------


Posted By: Rico Len
Date Posted: 27/August/2013 at 02:01
Originally posted by thundarr2000 thundarr2000 wrote:

I haven't seen any good chain wrestling on ROH, but I don't check it out that much. The last couple of ROH matches I wanted just didn't make any sense. There didn't seem to be any story within the match. The bumps were weak and the spots didn't flow together in any way.


Now that DOES turn me off from RoH.


-------------


Posted By: John The Baptist
Date Posted: 27/August/2013 at 10:26
Their matches are ass-backwards, you'll see Davey Richards (I have to use him in every example, he's THAT bad...) no-sell a Tombstone off the top rope, and kick out at 1 from a shotgun fired at him from point plank range, but lose from a superkick.

All matches come at an hour long as standard, but you won't be able to last that long due to the overbearing sound of fat virgins squealing "THIS IS RASSLIN" *clap clap clap clap clap*.

Be prepared for massive amounts of cheese in their backstage promos too. Kevin Steen tries so bad to look like a hard guy and fails massively. Looks like the token fat kid bully you get in most 80s adventure films, but straining for a shit with his big obese cheeks flapping around like a retarded bulldog.



-------------


Posted By: stipe
Date Posted: 27/August/2013 at 11:30
I,m glad I made you all responding, and I enjoy all the comments very much.

I proposed ROH title as No 3. since they have all that TV coverage and financial backup, although they are obviously loosing money in the live shows - less than 1000 average in US and little more in Toronto.

I agree that they need little storilines and little gimmick, after all - that,s what pro wrestling is all about.

I also don,t have patience to watch 45 minute match, but that brings me to something else.

The same crew as ROH is always running those PW Guerilla shows in LA, and they produce those 5-6 minutes videos on Youtube, with hard knocks and good music.

In my oppinion, those videos are best wrestling there is, even with some storylines made on the spot, good crowd reaction and good chain wrestling.




-------------
Still real to me dammit !


Posted By: HBKDX97
Date Posted: 27/August/2013 at 18:06
PW Guerilla is terrible. The fat pasty guy from one of the last few Gut Checks (Adam Pierce? His nickname was "Iron" lol) and Joey Ryan are headliners. 


-------------


Posted By: thundarr2000
Date Posted: 27/August/2013 at 18:23
He's called "Scrap Iron" Adam Pearce. Although more recently he's been using "Scrap Daddy." Has he even worked in PWF since 2004-05? He's more a regular with Championship Wrestling from Hollywood.

Joey Ryan was a co-founder of the company and might still be one of the owners. Joey Ryan is also a regular with CWHollywood.

More than half of the PWG roster are also in ROH. So that should explain a lot.


Posted By: John The Baptist
Date Posted: 27/August/2013 at 18:31
PWG was the only good indy, I even bought a 'best of' DVD.

Ask BFP or Edgehead about Human Tornado, Chris Bosh or Joey Ryan. They had fun characters and didn't take themselves seriously like ROP.

They had good spotmonkeys like Ted Hart and Pac (now Adie Neville in nXt)





-------------


Posted By: HBKDX97
Date Posted: 27/August/2013 at 18:33
Chris Bosh wrestles for PWG? Ok never mind, I need to get this footage.

Did D-Wade make an appearance?

Wink


-------------


Posted By: bigfloridapimp
Date Posted: 27/August/2013 at 21:55
Originally posted by John The Baptist John The Baptist wrote:

PWG was the only good indy, I even bought a 'best of' DVD.

Ask BFP or Edgehead about Human Tornado, Chris Bosh or Joey Ryan. They had fun characters and didn't take themselves seriously like ROP.

They had good spotmonkeys like Ted Hart and Pac (now Adie Neville in nXt)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmWZ27FDJb0

Prob one of the greatest spots in wrestling by Human Tornado


-------------


Posted By: Rico Len
Date Posted: 27/August/2013 at 22:11
Except that Evan Bourne ruined it by overselling.


-------------


Posted By: stipe
Date Posted: 28/August/2013 at 09:04
Perhaps I should post PW Guerilla topic instead of ROH, but I see that most of you guys got the point.

For those not appearing in ROH (at least not regularely) - I would call them mmmm... lets say: California mainstays, I would point some names without Adam Pearce. I mean he,s OK but not great.

As for great wrestlers, there are:

Willie Mack, who moves that fat ass with the lightning speed,

Rockness Monster: Johnny Yuma and Goodtime, who do lots of highspots and look great with those beards and sunglasses

and those Gangsta dudes, what,s their names: B- Boy and Famous B (too much bees, one should drop it) who are well skilled in the ring.

Beside others, these are guys who have a gimmick that is not silly and good ring entrance, and offcourse put on great in ring show, so they don,t need storylines - for them storylines are written on the spot by themselfs, and are very fun to watch. 


-------------
Still real to me dammit !


Posted By: RIP314
Date Posted: 29/August/2013 at 23:23
Originally posted by John The Baptist John The Baptist wrote:

Theres a reason Jap wrestling companies died out


are you high or something?


Posted By: John The Baptist
Date Posted: 30/August/2013 at 15:18
Jap wrestling is worthless.

Name one jap that came over to the big leagues and was a success. Tajiri was the only popular guy in the last 15 yrs, it's rife with vanilla midgets over there.


-------------


Posted By: Rico Len
Date Posted: 30/August/2013 at 17:24
I think that's a case of cultural differences and language barriers though. I would imagine that if some Japanese guy were able to speak fluent English (or engrish even) then within just a short amount of time he could get over. /shrug maybe not, but I DO think it's more about not having mic skills than mat skills or presence.


-------------


Posted By: RIP314
Date Posted: 30/August/2013 at 19:09
Originally posted by John The Baptist John The Baptist wrote:

Jap wrestling is worthless.

Name one jap that came over to the big leagues and was a success.

HUh? I don't get the question, success is relative, but I'll try to name more than just one.

Jushin Liger
Giant Baba
Masahiro Chono
Ultimo Dragon
The Great Kabuki
The Great Muta
Masato Tanaka...just to name a few

FOR GOD'S SAKE, ANTONIO INOKI was inducted into the WWE Hall Of Fame!

Why don't you do a little research before spouting your ignorance for everyone to read?


Posted By: Rico Len
Date Posted: 30/August/2013 at 19:14
Meanwhile JTB mentioned that Tajiri was the only guy in the last 15 years. What you list shows that at one time it WAS meaningful. However we are living in the here and now, and right now JTB is right.

Masato Tanaka is far from being a success. You're right however that success is relative. Relative to other Japanese wrestlers like Yoshi Tatsu, Tanaka is... er... well... hmmm. Maybe that was a bad example. On the other hand Yoshi Tatsu and Tanaka are very successful compared to the wrestlers here at TUP. :p


-------------


Posted By: John The Baptist
Date Posted: 30/August/2013 at 19:37
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

I think that's a case of cultural differences and language barriers though. I would imagine that if some Japanese guy were able to speak fluent English (or engrish even) then within just a short amount of time he could get over. /shrug maybe not, but I DO think it's more about not having mic skills than mat skills or presence.




Thats partially to do with it, the western world audience can't differentiate between one guy and another because (as racist as it sounds) they all sound the same and look the same. A guy could be cutting the most emotionally charged promo since Punk on the ramp yet we'd think he was singing Gangnam Style.

It's not just about mic skills tho, none of them have a decent look or gimmick. Morishima was their hottest prospect and WWE didn't want anything to do with him. He was on trial twice and they thought he was slow and looked like a fat lesbian.

This guy needs to wake up and see the jap scene for what it is. It's for American rejects to go and rehab their image by getting a push as the badass foreigner over there. Worked wonders for Albert and D'lo. They arent making any marketable stars so NOAH were so desperate they inadvertedly killed Misawa by dragging his old ass out there and having him carry bums every night.

They perform at empty halls which used to hold 50k in their heyday in the 90's. MMA took over there until Pride folded.




-------------


Posted By: HBKDX97
Date Posted: 30/August/2013 at 19:38
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Meanwhile JTB mentioned that Tajiri was the only guy in the last 15 years. What you list shows that at one time it WAS meaningful. However we are living in the here and now, and right now JTB is right.

Masato Tanaka is far from being a success. You're right however that success is relative. Relative to other Japanese wrestlers like Yoshi Tatsu, Tanaka is... er... well... hmmm. Maybe that was a bad example. On the other hand Yoshi Tatsu and Tanaka are very successful compared to the wrestlers here at TUP. :p

Oi! Uncalled for! 

I agree with JTB only slightly on this one. There haven't been that many Japanese stars that have become mega-famous, and only a slightly larger to become moderately famous (BEYOND the "smart" wrestling audience, whose numbers and influence are severely overestimated these days). 

However, I think it's mostly due to the style difference, rather than any lack of talent on the wrestler's part. That is why Mexican wrestlers are also not that successful, generally, at adapting to the US style. In Japan, wrestling companies are just as big as ever. But it's two different styles, which includes the audience. 

That's why ROH catches so much grief. Their style of wrestling would get them over huge in Japan, and even in Mexico in some cases. But they are pitching it to an audience that doesn't want it and are trying to force feed it where it just isn't going to work. Like headbutting a wall and trying to bring it down rather than just using a sledgehammer.


-------------


Posted By: thundarr2000
Date Posted: 30/August/2013 at 22:54
Originally posted by John The Baptist John The Baptist wrote:

Name one jap that came over to the big leagues and was a success. Tajiri was the only popular guy in the last 15 yrs, it's rife with vanilla midgets over there.
Gauging the quality of Japanese wrestling upon the number of wrestlers that have met with widespread success in the US is a poor argument. Yeah, a lot of Japanese guys came to the US up until the late 1990s. They came because they were following the money. But when the whole Monday Night Wars ended, those huge paychecks vanished as well. It became more profitable to stay in Japan. In fact the trend reversed and more North American wrestlers headed to Japan for the good money.

Originally posted by John The Baptist John The Baptist wrote:

They perform at empty halls which used to hold 50k in their heyday in the 90's. MMA took over there until Pride folded. 

Right now the wrestling scene in Japan isn't that great. But that has nothing to do with the quality of the wrestlers or promotions. Japan is still recovering from the disasters of 2011. Remember the 9.0 earthquake that led to the massive tsunami which in turn triggered the nuclear meltdown? The nuclear plant is still leaking out radiation. Their economy is still shitty as a result of the disasters.

About 3 years ago there was huge scandal regarding Yakuza involvement in fixing sumo tournaments. There's still a lot of gambling involved with sumo. Several of the sumo promoters are also boxing, wrestling and/or MMA promoters as well. So all of the "combat sports" suffered fallout from that scandal. All of them saw ticket sales and TV ratings go down.

Pride FC wasn't the end all be all of Japanese MMA. Despite UFC being largely unwelcome, MMA is still very much alive and active in Japan. Just none of them have big international TV deals. 



Posted By: RIP314
Date Posted: 30/August/2013 at 23:23
Originally posted by HBKDX97 HBKDX97 wrote:

 In Japan, wrestling companies are just as big as ever. 

This was my real point to begin with. Japanese wrestling certainly is not dead! 


Posted By: RIP314
Date Posted: 30/August/2013 at 23:25
Originally posted by thundarr2000 thundarr2000 wrote:

Gauging the quality of Japanese wrestling upon the number of wrestlers that have met with widespread success in the US is a poor argument. Yeah, a lot of Japanese guys came to the US up until the late 1990s. They came because they were following the money. But when the whole Monday Night Wars ended, those huge paychecks vanished as well. It became more profitable to stay in Japan. In fact the trend reversed and more North American wrestlers headed to Japan for the good money.

I wish I could say it better, but he's got it.

BTW I think a huge problem is the fact that Vince looks at japanese wrestlers as nothing but gimmick. He sees dragons, samurais and kimonos. I honestly can't think of a single japanese wrestler Vince Jr. ever promoted without making their japanese origins the main focus of their character. Even the great Inoki got saddled with that stupid Martial Arts title, but I think that was Vince Sr on that one.



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net