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Phil "CM Punk" Brooks in UFC

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John The Baptist View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John The Baptist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/June/2018 at 18:42
Wrestling is another game, depends on what gimmick you have and character you portray.

Of course it'd be nice if your champion has a hard man/woman aura surrounding them ie a Lesnar/Shamrock/Rousey or even your Haku or Bam Bam brick shithouse types, but it ain't neccesary if you're playing a cowardly heel or fluke champ.

As mentioned, can't fault the man for having bottle to step in there. The level of competition was a disgrace though, fortunately for him. The UFC bending over backwards to bring on rookies was pathetic, this is meant to be the elite of martial arts not some carny fed putting on shows in town halls.

At least other high profile debutants in UFC had a top class sporting pedigree and weren't given an easy ride.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/June/2018 at 22:11
Rico and Baptist nail on the head lads. I agreed when he said Vince would tell him a show has say three main events and he'd tell Vince their is only one main event and that's what closes a show.

But I think because of how strongly he was booked in kayfabe, the push probably went to his head and he actually thought he was legit tough and could beat the guys that put him over for real.

Wrestling is better when you believe the top champion of the company could probably legit beat up people. Seeing one of the longest reigning champions ever lose to two jobbers in just two fights is bad and probably proves that Vince was right to not push him to the level he did Rock/Hogan/Austin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote #Heel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/June/2018 at 22:44
so using your logic, you think Rock, Hogan, Austin and Flair etc would all succeed in MMA?

Wind ya neck in you womble.

Punk was in a no win situation that he put himself in, had he won then he was fighting a nobody and had he lost (which he did) then his whole MMA thing was confirmed as many expected, a sham.

No one expected Punk to win, dont think i seen 1 person even suggest it.

The way the guys are booked in WWE should be reason enough as to why people consider them championship level - outside ventures shouldnt be considered. The build up in WWE should by why people consider them legit threats, or else the concept just wouldnt work and we should only ever have champions like Lesnar and Strowman - guys like Bryan, Balor, Punk, Aries, Styles should all be lower level.

Im not disagreeing with anyone here by the way in the sense that i 100% believe Punk should not have been on a main UFC card - what i am disagreeing with is that because he lost twice then therefore Vince was right not to push him. that statement makes absolutely zero sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/June/2018 at 23:25
Originally posted by #Heel #Heel wrote:

People really need to think about what they are posting before pressing that "Post Reply" button.

Even the comment about Bryan chasing the guy down and holding him until police got there is invalid and shouldnt be used in this topic.

Punk was legit fighting people who were trained fighters. Yes, in terms of UFC, they were nobodies but they were still trained in the art of MMA.

Holding a randomer down who has had no training is not comparible in any way shape or form.

You totally missed the point on mentioning Bryan. I'm not saying Bryan could do shit in UFC. I'm saying the fact that he did what he did gives him more "tough guy" points than most wrestlers in today's era; an era where wrestlers have 0 points, need 100 to survive in UFC, and Bryan got 10 for holding down a robber.

A lot of the old wrestlers WERE fighters and proto-mixed martial artists, and a small handful were street fighters no different than guys like Ken Shamrock who had zero professional training until after they got into the business. Roddy Piper was getting his ass beat abusively both physically and sexually by other older wrestlers until Judo Gene Labell taught him Judo (go figure) and very young Piper still a 150 pounds wet was able to fight off guys twice his size. Ken Shamrock's upbringing and introduction to his respective promotion were quite comparable to Piper's in many ways, yet Shamrock is a UFC Hall of Famer and nobody knows what could have become of Piper in that realm. All of this goes to my point that NO, the fact that they're professionally trained isn't actually that big of a deal UNTIL you bring up the idea that so and so from back in the day in WWF could beat up so and so from the UFC today.

UFC fighting has evolved a LOT over the last 30 years. Bruce Lee was a guy that would have fucking destroyed fighters back in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even 90s, but you get into the 2000s and suddenly things take a big leap forward across the board, new strategies were developed, perfected, countered, and advanced upon to such a degree that it's questionable certain legendary martial artists could even compete with your run of the mill fighter today.

Yet even so, you get so many different weight classes in MMA that it should be abundantly clear that size does matter in a fight, and a guy like Brock Lesnar who was purely a wrestler and only had a few months of MMA training could just beast his way through other people in his own weight class. Yet outside his weight class as a heavyweight? He'd have mauled smaller guys like Conner McGreggor like a grizzly bear peeling open a car door like a tin can to get at the tourist taking pictures inside.

Haku? Haku was a monster, and when people say Haku would do well? That's no joke. The toughest of the tough guys were scared of him. From just reaching in a guys mouth and snapping his teeth off to biting another guy's nose off, to clearing out multiple police officers armed with nightsticks and mace in an airport and no-selling the mace, MMA rules would have hampered him so I'm not sure what would have happened there, but in a legit street fight? I'll pick Haku over Shamrock or Gracie every time.

I agree that Punk deserves credit. He lost by decision, he lasted the entire match, and that's an admirable improvement.

I agree that MMA and Sports Entertainment have a big problem with people not knowing how to separate the differences between the two, but a lot of that has to do with the origins of pro-wrestling pretending to be a real sport. Moreover there's a fair-sized section of fans WANT pro-wrestling to be a real sport, and even more fans still that want to not be able to tell the difference. I include myself in that group. I don't mind it being fake, but I don't want to see tells that show me it's fake, and when I watch old school wrestling it is VERY hard to tell it's a team performance sport and not legit competition.


Originally posted by John The Baptist John The Baptist wrote:

UFC gained very little from this deal IMO. Look at the fight card from last night. Every one of the Fight Pass prelims was better than Punks fight. It's a sham.
 

They got ticket sales, I think that's all they really wanted in the first place. Punk was a big draw for last night's fight so even after washing out he still did the job he was hired to do.

Originally posted by #Heel #Heel wrote:


My main point is that just because Punk got schooled in MMA does not mean that it proves WWE was wrong to make him Champion.

Adders seems to think that you need to be a legit badass to be a WWE champion when infact anyone can be as it is based on totally different things.

There are alot of people who would never fight in MMA, regardless of how much training theyve had, because of how dangerous it is - Punk deserves at least some credit for stepping up plus as you said - he was a late starter so was fucked from the get go.
 

I hope no one is saying Punk shouldn't have been WWE champion. He should have been champion, he was great as a champion at least to one section of fans, and I haven't seen anyone saying that this loss means he shouldn't have been champ.

Originally posted by admin admin wrote:

But I think because of how strongly he was booked in kayfabe, the push probably went to his head and he actually thought he was legit tough and could beat the guys that put him over for real.

Wrestling is better when you believe the top champion of the company could probably legit beat up people.


OK I'm right there with you on this, but then...

Quote Seeing one of the longest reigning champions ever lose to two jobbers in just two fights is bad and probably proves that Vince was right to not push him to the level he did Rock/Hogan/Austin.
 

Huh? How do you figure that?

Quote Punk was in a no win situation that he put himself in, had he won then he was fighting a nobody and had he lost (which he did) then his whole MMA thing was confirmed as many expected, a sham.

No one expected Punk to win, dont think i seen 1 person even suggest it.

The way the guys are booked in WWE should be reason enough as to why people consider them championship level - outside ventures shouldnt be considered. The build up in WWE should by why people consider them legit threats, or else the concept just wouldnt work and we should only ever have champions like Lesnar and Strowman - guys like Bryan, Balor, Punk, Aries, Styles should all be lower level.

Im not disagreeing with anyone here by the way in the sense that i 100% believe Punk should not have been on a main UFC card - what i am disagreeing with is that because he lost twice then therefore Vince was right not to push him. that statement makes absolutely zero sense.


You're right about the no-win situation. I still don't understand his reasoning for it, but I never needed to understand it either. He wanted it so there's no reason not to try if he's done with wrestling for good like he says he is.

"outside ventures shouldnt be considered."

There's the problem though, whether they should or shouldn't they always will. Professional Wrestling's origins assured that long before MMA ever came along. For the record, I'm of the opinion that they should be considered because it helps maintain believability and I value that quite a bit.



Edited by Rico Len - 10/June/2018 at 23:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote L-shizzel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/June/2018 at 00:42
The main problem was punks attitude in WWE look who he rubbed the wrong way like it's good to be outspoken but it's never good to fuck with the top dog in the locker room or office.

His UFC reign was a joke he came in way too late I've said this to so many people it's just not viable for him to continue down that road.

The best thing for him is to try and mend fences with Vince and hope there's still a spot for him in the WWE right now I'm not liking his chances and that is purely on the fact that there's already a lot of top guys and he would end up in a Jericho like role which I don't think he wants he would want that main event spot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/June/2018 at 01:48
He wanted to try his hand at UFC. It didn't turn out well. He doesn't want to go back to WWE. He has managed his money well. He doesn't need to wrestle ever again. He can fully retire and live off royalties and whatever money AJ Lee makes for him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/June/2018 at 10:45
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

OK I'm right there with you on this, but then...

Quote Seeing one of the longest reigning champions ever lose to two jobbers in just two fights is bad and probably proves that Vince was right to not push him to the level he did Rock/Hogan/Austin.
 

Huh? How do you figure that?

Because as I have said a few times now, I want the main company champion to be someone I can believe that if the fights were legit they would beat people up.

Punk wanted to be pushed as the main guy in E, but he's not tough enough because he's just lost both his jobber fights in UFC.

Say he wanted to come back I am sure a lot of fans would want him as the guy to beat Brock. But in a real situation Lesnar would break his arm quicker than Usain Bolt runs the 100 metres.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/June/2018 at 11:26
I can see Admin’s point, it’s like Vince McMahon’s philosophy that a top talent should look and carry himself like a superstar, I wouldn’t say a talent necessarily has to be a real life hardcase but they need to look and act like they are.

This is why I could always buy into someone like The Ultimate Warrior or Roman Reigns or Brock Lesnar or Bobby Lashley as a top star but not so much Daniel Bryan or Finn Balor, these guys didn’t or don’t have the technical wrestling ability of Bryan or Balor but they look the part and have the demeanour of a super human, you can believe they would be bad ass in a scrap.
I find it hard to believe that someone like Balor who looks and acts like a internet wrestling nerd would be able to beat anyone in a fight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote #Heel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/June/2018 at 19:16
Originally posted by admin admin wrote:


Punk wanted to be pushed as the main guy in E, but he's not tough enough because he's just lost both his jobber fights in UFC.

Say he wanted to come back I am sure a lot of fans would want him as the guy to beat Brock. But in a real situation Lesnar would break his arm quicker than Usain Bolt runs the 100 metres.

You really are a mong.

How many other people on the current roster have fought in MMA. Lesnar and Rousey are the 2 notable ones but with exception of them - none.

So using your logic, the only one we can expect to be WWE Universal Champion is Brock Lesnar because everyone else would probably lose MMA matches and obviously if Punk came back he shouldnt be champion because he lost 2 MMA matches.

You honestly come out with some of the most retarded things i have ever read in my life.

The Rock came across as tough, so did Austin, Hogan, Flair, HBK, HHH - the list goes on - looking at them all, i can honestly say id expect them all to lose if they had an MMA match.

Now in addition to the point youve made, Brock Lesnar lost to Frank Mir in his UFC debut - he also lost to Cain Velasquez and Alistair Overeem (who by the way has had tons and tons of MMA losses himself) Lesnar only won 4 matches in UFC - he lost 3 and had a decision overturned for drug use.

Ronda Rousey was the biggest hype job in UFC history - she fought jobber after jobber and then when she fought quality opposition in Holm and Nunes - she lost both fights easily - yet in the threads about Ronda you talk about her as she should be a serious threat to the womens roster.

The whole point you are making about Punk not being as tough as he was built, has only been proven since he left WWE - that can have no bearing on his run whilst with the company because his legit toughness, if thats what you are using as a yard stick, was unproven.

I am of the opinion that a WWE Champion should be seen as a legitimate threat. That means within the ring they are able to beat their opponents. That can be through speed, strength, power, tactics - there are hundreds of ways to win a match without being the most physically imposing or being a legitimate hard man. As the saying goes if size matters, then the Elephant would be the king of the jungle.

Punk at least had the balls to attempt the most dangerous sport in the world, at the age of 39. That to me says he is tougher than most other people on the roster - yes he lost but at least he had the balls to try. Shows he isnt scared of anything yet youve got the so called tough guys like Roman Reigns saying he would never try MMA because its too dangerous.

I honestly cant get or understand some people on here at times when they post such ridiculous things.

Again, i reiterate my point on the guys of the past, yes the likes of Haku etc etc came across as legit hardmen - but thats being a big fish in a relatively small pond in that sense - i wonder if he would have had the same attitude / so called hard-man aura if he was in the back with hundreds of legit, proven, world class MMA fighters?

I know alot of people like the champion to look a certain way, Vince being one of them, but the way they are booked in WWE carries far more than how they are when they are not in the ring. 

Daniel Bryan based on his in ring ability is a far more credible champion than someone like Chris Masters (who was built physically and acted in such a way that he could beat anyone). 

With exception of Brock - i cant think of a WWE or Universal Champion that i honestly think could beat most opponents in a real fight - AJ, Jinder, Orton, Wyatt, Cena, Ambrose, Rollins, Reigns, Balor, Owens??? - maybe Goldberg could be perceived like that but thats about it.

The whole top and bottom of it is, Punk lost twice to some relatively nobodies in MMA - but whos to say the same outcome wouldnt happen to the rest of the roster. When Jon Bones Jones destroys Lesnar in his UFC comeback match, does that mean he should never be WWE champion again because hes then lost 4 matches and won 4 - so 50% loss record?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/June/2018 at 21:46
Originally posted by #Heel #Heel wrote:

Originally posted by admin admin wrote:


Punk wanted to be pushed as the main guy in E, but he's not tough enough because he's just lost both his jobber fights in UFC.

Say he wanted to come back I am sure a lot of fans would want him as the guy to beat Brock. But in a real situation Lesnar would break his arm quicker than Usain Bolt runs the 100 metres.

You really are a mong.

It's spelled Hmong. ;)

Quote How many other people on the current roster have fought in MMA. Lesnar and Rousey are the 2 notable ones but with exception of them - none.

Gzim Selmani/Rezar - Authors of Pain and Daria Barenato/Sonya Deville are two I know of off the top of my head. Not to mention that in NXT you've also got Shayna Baszler, and Marina Shafir, and Jessamine Duke. I swear there's another guy but I can't figure out who nor can I remember. Either way, there's not many.


Quote So using your logic, the only one we can expect to be WWE Universal Champion is Brock Lesnar because everyone else would probably lose MMA matches and obviously if Punk came back he shouldnt be champion because he lost 2 MMA matches.


When you walk up to someone at a bar because they just grabbed your girl, and they tower over you and they're jacked, and confident, do you feel like you could take them? 

What if someone you're a head taller than did the same thing?

That's the difference between Brock Lesnar , Roman Reigns, and Braun Strowman, and that of Finn Balor, AJ Styles, and Daniel Bryan.

Quote The Rock came across as tough, so did Austin, Hogan, Flair, HBK, HHH - the list goes on - looking at them all, i can honestly say id expect them all to lose if they had an MMA match.

Not the point. The point is they came across as tough and so were  easy to buy into. It takes a lot more to buy into the littler guys. It's not that people CAN'T buy into them either, at least not in general, some can't, but it just takes more to prove yourself is all. Connor McGreggor has had the same problem. The guy's a shrimp, and so he had to fight harder to get the same respect a guy like Brock Lesnar had basically day one and even after he lost 2 matches in a row.

Quote Ronda Rousey was the biggest hype job in UFC history - she fought jobber after jobber and then when she fought quality opposition in Holm and Nunes - she lost both fights easily - yet in the threads about Ronda you talk about her as she should be a serious threat to the womens roster.


That was ME, not Adders. Adders was basically quiet on that front. I know because I was fighting that cause alone. Also, no Rousey wasn't JUST a hype job either. She beat a number of credible women, some of those have beaten Holly Holm and Amanda Nunes.

Rousey lost to Amanda Nunes, but beat Cat Zingano who beat Nunes.
Rousey lost to Holly Holm, but Miesha Tate who beat Holly Holm for the title.

You know what that represents? Competition, the exact thing you say Rousey had none of.

Quote The whole point you are making about Punk not being as tough as he was built, has only been proven since he left WWE - that can have no bearing on his run whilst with the company because his legit toughness, if thats what you are using as a yard stick, was unproven.

Yeah seriously Adders, what's up with that? I agree with Heel on this point.

Quote I am of the opinion that a WWE Champion should be seen as a legitimate threat. That means within the ring they are able to beat their opponents. That can be through speed, strength, power, tactics - there are hundreds of ways to win a match without being the most physically imposing or being a legitimate hard man. As the saying goes if size matters, then the Elephant would be the king of the jungle.

Erm… I agree, but... Elephants aren't predated on while in their prime, only the old, immature, or sick are even fucked with and still are given a wide berth by lions and tigers.

Also the king of the jungle doesn't live in the jungle so that metaphor is kind of ass. :p Just sayin. lol

Bryan was showing Sami Zayn this way of moving around the ring that he referred to as his beast mode for if/when he ever got into the ring against Lesnar and it was awesome. It made him look like a caveman/wild animal/savage and just watching him move like that made him look like he could have torn Lesnar to shreds like a leopard on a wildebeest. 

It helps that Bryan had to overcome so much to get to where he is. That's really the only problem with Finn Balor right now, he hasn't had to overcome any major odds. He beat AJ Styles clean, and AJ has proven he can do great things in the ring just like Bryan has, but then nothing was ever done with that win and now Balor needs to start from scratch again.

On the other hand, Drew McIntyre looks like he should be WWE champion right now and he's done fuckall since rejoining the main roster.

Quote Punk at least had the balls to attempt the most dangerous sport in the world, at the age of 39. That to me says he is tougher than most other people on the roster - yes he lost but at least he had the balls to try. Shows he isnt scared of anything yet youve got the so called tough guys like Roman Reigns saying he would never try MMA because its too dangerous.

I respect Punk. It took him a long time to win me over, but he did it. And I agree that he made a fantastic WWE Champion. That said it was always ill-advised to go into MMA simply because of his age. However, he didn't exactly get his ass kicked in his last fight. He did waaaay better than he did in his last fight. I think if he had another fight in UFC he would stand a good chance of winning, especially if the guy was his age and had his experience. The problem is that at his age there's just so little reason to be in MMA. I think Lesnar is stupid for wanting to go back, too.

Quote Again, i reiterate my point on the guys of the past, yes the likes of Haku etc etc came across as legit hardmen - but thats being a big fish in a relatively small pond in that sense - i wonder if he would have had the same attitude / so called hard-man aura if he was in the back with hundreds of legit, proven, world class MMA fighters?


And this is where you're really so wrong. There was no pond, anywhere. Not in his era, and not in the era of Piper, or Mad Dog Vachon, or the Blackjacks, or Antonio Inoki, or Lou Thesz, and so on back. It was NOT about being a big fish in a small pond, it was about finding a place that could even serve as a pond and WWF was as close to a pond as you could find back then. And when it was protected people didn't even know it was a work until they fought their first match and they were given the finish.

The point is those guys had no place to go to prove themselves, and the waters were so muddied with regards to whether it was fake back then, that many guys that would have gone into MMA because they were confident they were somebody went to WWWF/WWF instead because there was no where else to go. That being the case, their street fights, and backstage brawls and the like really meant a lot more than they do now.

You can't judge the two eras the same way at all, either in WWF/WWE or UFC in the 90s compared to today.

Quote I know alot of people like the champion to look a certain way, Vince being one of them, but the way they are booked in WWE carries far more than how they are when they are not in the ring.

And this brings us back to the whole size matters issue. Without good booking that allows the fans to buy into an underdog, the bigger guy is assumed to be the tougher opponent. You look at two people you've never seen before, you pick the bigger guy. It's only when you know that Connor McGreggor is the little guy and the big guy is "The Great" Khali that you realize the little guy is gonna fuck the big guy up bad. But when you've got 1 foot taller Connor McGreggor vs regular Connor McGreggor, you got with big Connor McGreggor over little.

Quote Daniel Bryan based on his in ring ability is a far more credible champion than someone like Chris Masters (who was built physically and acted in such a way that he could beat anyone).

Absolutely. Bryan was proven, Masters was not.

Quote With exception of Brock - i cant think of a WWE or Universal Champion that i honestly think could beat most opponents in a real fight - AJ, Jinder, Orton, Wyatt, Cena, Ambrose, Rollins, Reigns, Balor, Owens??? - maybe Goldberg could be perceived like that but thats about it.

Agreed. Yet who looks the most intimidating if all else is the same skill-wise? I wouldn't want to hinder Jinder. I wouldn't fuck with Cena or Orton. Reigns looks badass so I wouldn't want to mess with him. AJ looks like a punk. Wyatt and Owens are fatasses. Balor is gay. Rollins is too. Ambrose probably wouldn't fight me, he'd just pull a gun. Goldberg's an old man, I'd kick him in the hip and let him drop. And you know what? I'd probably be wrong about half the time, too.

Quote The whole top and bottom of it is, Punk lost twice to some relatively nobodies in MMA - but whos to say the same outcome wouldnt happen to the rest of the roster. When Jon Bones Jones destroys Lesnar in his UFC comeback match, does that mean he should never be WWE champion again because hes then lost 4 matches and won 4 - so 50% loss record?
 

Well, that doesn't mean it, but no he shouldn't be WWE champion again, because he's boring.
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