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Rico Len View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28/November/2018 at 16:23
Originally posted by Tom Colohue Tom Colohue wrote:

I mean, you're about a quarter right there.

Oh, Tom... here we go.

Quote During Raw and Smackdown programming, yes, the goal is to convert a diverse fanbase but they grow that fanbase outside of those programs. Yes, the goal is to fill the needs of many different markets. That gets the talent over, which gets the show over. Raw and Smackdown is only 5 hours of time. For the rest of it there are sponsorships, philanthropic adventures and cross promotion. The fanbase isn't what you think it is. There's a reason millions of people know Wrestlemania but have no clue about Summerslam, Survivor Series or even the Royal Rumble.

Yes, that is correct. However I know very well who their fanbase is. I'm not as dumb as you're suggesting.

Quote If a company like WCW circa 1997 came around, WWE would continue with no real affect. WWE has grown immeasurably since then and is making record revenue despite the lower TV ratings. WWE is a national institution.

This is something I have said myself, more times than I care to count.

You seem to think that I'm saying AEW could instantly be WCW circa 1997 and that would be enough to kill WWE, when I'm saying only half of that. There IS the possibility they could be WCW 1997 right off, though obviously those chances are very slight. 

As far as taking out WWE right now though, that's simply not possible. Though if AEW had such a crazy high ground level, then in 10 years time, they could conceivably grow even further to become what WWE is today, and even enough more of a company to match what WWE could become in 10 years time.

However, there's also the chance that WWE continues it's woes, stock drops, ratings, etc., while at the same time AEW makes that aforementioned growth, and that could be devastating not only to the WWE but to the wrestling industry as a whole, because why replace a market leader when you can have competition making both a better product?

Quote I think it's also fair to ask what the hell you think NJPW, ROH and Impact have been failing so miserably at that they've never even dented WWE yet you think a brand new company with no history, no sponsorship deals and only one recognised draw has a chance of doing better?

Simple. They've tried and failed, AEW have not. There's also the fact that if what we're hearing is true, then AEW could have more money than all the other promotions combined, and maybe even more than WWE have to work with. AEW's financial backing is potentially gigantic, or alternatively and very possibly far more likely, just a stipend of what Tony Khan has. Until this value is defined, the potential for growth in AEW is larger than that of WWE itself.



Quote WWE's fanbase is not a huge reservoir.

Should we just end the conversation right there? No, WWE have no fans, you're right. My bad.


Quote Wrestling fans are already inundated with options, whereas sports entertainment fans have one singular option available. WWE isn't a wrestling show, and people who watch for wrestling more often also watch another federation to get their fix. That's why they have NXT, to give people their fix and keep them in house.

Wrestling fans are already inundated with BAD options. Backyard wrestling isn't a viable option. Wrestling where promos aren't in English and locked behind multiple paywalls isn't an option for most English speaking fans. Wrestling where production values are abysmal, and storylines are shoddy at BEST isn't an option. Wrestling shows as a whole are sub-par. There simply isn't a product out there where the fan can say "It's like everything I used to love about WWE and more."

Whereas sports entertainment fans have some very high end venues to look to such as the Harlem Globetrotters and their version of basketball, every wrestling organization ever, sumo-wrestling, and even some groups of MMA. 

I would think you of all people should understand this, that in the order cognoscenti pro-wrestling falls under sports entertainment not the other way around. Therefore, there is ipso facto less options for pro-wrestling fans than for fans of sports entertainment. 

Quote They're not going to take fans from WWE because WWE fans are not just wrestling fans, they're in every walk of life. They are going to take fans away from NJPW, ROH, Impact and the like. Short of hiring The Rock, Roman Reigns, Seth Rollins and Ronda Rousey, nothing is going to change for WWE.

In fact, that's basically what WCW was circa 1997, wasn't it?
 

To be fair, these days it's easier to consume more media than ever before, and the fact that WCW & WWF went head to head in the same timeslot on the same night these days would mean very little because one would simply be watched digitally and both likely consumed regularly.

However, my point was simply that WWE's fanbase would be a huge reservoir from which a company like AEW could draw. You can't ignore the fact that viewership is down across the board in the WWE and has been trending downward for some time now. Yet whenever something "big" happens, viewership spikes, suggesting that the fanbase is just as large as ever but that, just as has been stated countless times by the so-called 'vocal minority,' fans are just fed up with their intelligence being insulted by WWE programming and they want something of higher quality than is being produced.

Now, whether AEW could do any better remains to be seen, but there is absolutely nothing wrong in having hope, which is what you're essentially trying to squash here when you summarily state that "Nope, AEW has no chance in hell of ever competing with WWE and WWE will live forever."

All I'm saying is that, yes, there is a chance albeit slim that AEW could be the company that reinvigorates the industry and gives WWE some real competition just the way WCW used to back in 1997 because it does happen in the business world from time to time and has happened to bigger companies than WWE, and that it's worth keeping an eye on this company because it could turn into something big. Or it could fizzle, but why not watch and find out first hand?


Edited by Rico Len - 28/November/2018 at 16:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28/November/2018 at 21:42
The problem for any new promotion now is that WWE have grown to the point of where they have swallowed up the whole fan base, with the introduction of the network there is literally something for everyone. For the smarks who prefer more of a indie style there is NXT, for fans of Brit wrestling there’s now NXT UK and even those who despise WWE or prefer the old school style there’s still enough old footage on there to keep those fans happy. This is before you even consider all the non-wrestling content on there and the behind the scenes stuff.

There is room for another promotion to provide a alternative to WWE and maybe achieve a cult following of sorts, much like ECW did for a time, but I don’t think anyone even with a huge cash injection can really become serious completion to WWE.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28/November/2018 at 22:04
"I don’t think anyone even with a huge cash injection can really become serious completion to WWE."

Over what period of time? Are we talking immediately, or a decade of steady growth?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John The Baptist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/November/2018 at 13:51
Originally posted by Fletch Fletch wrote:

The problem for any new promotion now is that WWE have grown to the point of where they have swallowed up the whole fan base, with the introduction of the network there is literally something for everyone. For the smarks who prefer more of a indie style there is NXT, for fans of Brit wrestling there’s now NXT UK and even those who despise WWE or prefer the old school style there’s still enough old footage on there to keep those fans happy. This is before you even consider all the non-wrestling content on there and the behind the scenes stuff.

There is room for another promotion to provide a alternative to WWE and maybe achieve a cult following of sorts, much like ECW did for a time, but I don’t think anyone even with a huge cash injection can really become serious completion to WWE.



Legit probably more chance of winning the lottery than having a start-up challenge a multi-million dollar wrestling fed in our lifetime.

1/ Too costly. WWE have finely tuned their production values, cut out any undue expense like the costly pyro in the late 90s. It's gotten to the point we are used to seeing 4k shot footage as standard, with all WWEs whistles and bells like the Titantron setup and such.

To replicate that, it'll take enormous inital expense to buy cameras and trained staff in operations. That's years and years down the pipeline, and just to be on par. 'On par' isn't providing an alternative. Also look how shite ROH's production is and they have (in theory) an unlimited pot of money.



2/ No star power. Who are you going to sell your hypothetical show to? If you want an indy fed by all means scale down the flashy screens and graphics and get guys like Osprey and Cabana to headline your warehouse shows. But we are talking about competing with the WWE. The WWE themselves are roping in 50 year olds because literally nobody gives a fuck about the bums they promote on their weekly shows. All the stars from the Attitude Era are dead or crippled. You can't go to the ECW well anymore. Japan has been raided, and Japs don't sell well in the west anyway.



3/ Wrestling isn't 'in' right now. Could make the case that there isn't the neckbeard stigma there used to be and it's much more accessible but there's so many options to watch via internet it's unlikely a TV deal would be there unless it's a TV studio running the company. Nobody is gonna be spending money on some alphabet soup fed like APW or whatever the fuck. All In drew because of the one off novelty. Would be incredibly hard to keep that feel good factor going more regularly.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Colohue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/November/2018 at 13:56
This may take a while but as we're doing this, might as well go #AllIn, am I right?

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Yes, that is correct. However I know very well who their fanbase is. I'm not as dumb as you're suggesting.

I literally told you because you argued that their fanbase was purely one thing going to another, whereas I was arguing that it was the other way around. Pay attention to yourself, too, mate. 

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

This is something I have said myself, more times than I care to count.

You seem to think that I'm saying AEW could instantly be WCW circa 1997 and that would be enough to kill WWE, when I'm saying only half of that. There IS the possibility they could be WCW 1997 right off, though obviously those chances are very slight.

WCW circa 1997 wouldn't make a dent in WWE now. Literally create a show of that calibur out of thin air right now and it won't even make a scratch. WWE is a nationalised institution that has grown exponentially.

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:


As far as taking out WWE right now though, that's simply not possible. Though if AEW had such a crazy high ground level, then in 10 years time, they could conceivably grow even further to become what WWE is today, and even enough more of a company to match what WWE could become in 10 years time.

No, they couldn't. You can get the network and watch more than 30 years of history. WWE isn't just WWE now, WWE is also nostalgia. Then, now, forever.

WWE is the company that refused to cancel the show after 9/11. WWE is the show that featured the president of the united states taking a Stone Cold Stunner. WWE is Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, John Cena and The Rock. It's Mike Tyson punching Shawn Michaels and Arnold Shwarzanegger punching Triple H. 

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:


However, there's also the chance that WWE continues it's woes, stock drops, ratings, etc., while at the same time AEW makes that aforementioned growth, and that could be devastating not only to the WWE but to the wrestling industry as a whole, because why replace a market leader when you can have competition making both a better product?


Woes? Ratings are going down, sure. The stock price is far from woeful. Profit is going up and up. To any other company, including AEW should it happen, ratings losses are a problem. WWE has its lowest ratings in decades and Fox still spent a ton of money to buy it. They've developed and expanded to meet their audience using the network, YouTube, social media and shows in other countries. 

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Should we just end the conversation right there? No, WWE have no fans, you're right. My bad.

If AEW markets to wrestling fans then that's most of the WWE fanbase unavailable to them. The vast majority of WWE fans are casuals who will not seek out alternatives because they're happy with what they have. I thought you said you knew who the WWE target market is? That target market also makes up the majority of their fans. 

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Wrestling fans are already inundated with BAD options. Backyard wrestling isn't a viable option. Wrestling where promos aren't in English and locked behind multiple paywalls isn't an option for most English speaking fans. Wrestling where production values are abysmal, and storylines are shoddy at BEST isn't an option. Wrestling shows as a whole are sub-par. There simply isn't a product out there where the fan can say "It's like everything I used to love about WWE and more."

And you're assuming that AEW isn't going to be this. They'd have money, sure, but that's less about money and more about who's at the helm. 

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

To be fair, these days it's easier to consume more media than ever before, and the fact that WCW & WWF went head to head in the same timeslot on the same night these days would mean very little because one would simply be watched digitally and both likely consumed regularly.

When you burn out on wrestling, which show are you going to watch less of? The new one with the people you haven't heard of or the older one that's all over social media, full of drawing power and is the comfort show. It's like voting; people who don't know who to vote for are far more likely to vote for whoever's in power at the time. 

Phew. Long post. Thanks though; distracted me from work for a bit. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/December/2018 at 11:41
WWE since the death of ECW and WCW have finely tuned their business model from just being the leading wrestling promotion in the US to a global empire that really now has something for every wrestling fan, even the most stubborn of anti-WWE fans will find something they like on the Network, WWE really do cater for everyone these days, even the hardcore British wrestling fans who won’t watch anything outside of the UK now have NXT UK.

TV ratings don’t really matter anymore, WWE has so many streams of revenue, in this day and age it’s more about using social media outlets and online content. The days of watching live tv are dead. In a way the one logical change WWE could now make would be to stop running live tv as it’s costly and fewer people than ever are tuning in live for Raw and Smackdown. If this meant Raw and Smackdown episodes could be added to the Network as they air or right after I would be happy to see that. Another thing I can see happening in the future is WWE purchasing TNA and adding their product to the Network or simply merging it with NXT.

With their business model WWE is able to utilise all top talent from across the world in some capacity leaving only a small minority of names that people care about not attached to the company.

Wrestling is a niche product and no company could catch WWE at present, they would literally need to raid every top talent from the WWE roster and then spend decades building their business model to the WWE standard. This would be so costly that they would probably never see any profit and would go the same route as WCW.

Running one off special attractions like All In is the way forward as they have novelty value but wouldn’t work on a full time basis, at least not close to the level needed to rival WWE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Colohue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/December/2018 at 14:34
I agree completely with all of that. All In was lauded as a success and a gamechanger. In reality nothing has been changed. A once in a lifetime show got good attendance, on a par with the numbers that WWE shows get twice a week, by utilising a year long aggressive and expensive marketing campaign, historical significance, the biggest draws possible and the good will that fans have towards underdogs.

They were also in their strongest possible area of target audience and specifically marketed to a very small percentage of the overall market share. This is after the huge amount of press and sponsorship tickets were given away too, FYI.

It's called legacy marketing. They tell you the event was even better than it actually was in order to sell future tickets. 


Edited by Tom Colohue - 01/December/2018 at 14:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/December/2018 at 16:51
Fans will flock to see a well marketed and presented one off novelty show which as you say featured the cream of non-WWE talent. It was successful because it happened once, I draw comparison to the ECW nostalgia shows WWE ran for two consecutive years, these shows were also well presented and marketed and run in a ECW smark area at a time when there was a lot of ECW nostalgic buzz. As soon as WWE tried to capitalise on this and relaunch ECW as a full-time brand it completely tanked and this is exactly what would happen if the All In crowd tried to covert their one off show into a full-time show format.

As Tom also said All In did good business but it didn’t do any better than WWE could easily do with a NXT Takeover event or even a house show in the right town.

Edited by Fletch - 04/December/2018 at 12:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico Len Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/December/2018 at 16:20
Sorry took a few days off, back now though. I saw that you had posted, but I wasn't about to attempt to respond to this on my phone.

Originally posted by Tom Colohue Tom Colohue wrote:

This may take a while but as we're doing this, might as well go #AllIn, am I right?

Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Yes, that is correct. However I know very well who their fanbase is. I'm not as dumb as you're suggesting.

I literally told you because you argued that their fanbase was purely one thing going to another, whereas I was arguing that it was the other way around. Pay attention to yourself, too, mate.

I'm not sure I even understand what you're saying here. What I'm saying is that for all the work WWE does trying to diversify their audience, without wrestling fans, they die, pure and simple. Without people watching their product (IE ratings, which includes online viewership via legal websites like USA.com, Hulu, and presumably for smackdown in the future, Fox.com) WWE lose sponsors, without sponsors they lose their network deals, without the network deals, they're forced to live off ticket sales, which are not great, merchandising which will take a huge hit, and network subscriptions which would likely drop as well.

The fact is, that if people aren't watching their product for essentially free on TV, they're not likely to spend money on anything fancier. 

Quote
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

This is something I have said myself, more times than I care to count.

You seem to think that I'm saying AEW could instantly be WCW circa 1997 and that would be enough to kill WWE, when I'm saying only half of that. There IS the possibility they could be WCW 1997 right off, though obviously those chances are very slight.

WCW circa 1997 wouldn't make a dent in WWE now. Literally create a show of that calibur out of thin air right now and it won't even make a scratch. WWE is a nationalised institution that has grown exponentially.

Yeah, fair call. I didn't make my point very clear here. What I should have said, and was trying to say was that a company like WCW circa 1997, IE a company roughly as large or even larger than that of WWF circa 1998, meaning worldwide exposure, national media attention, celebrity involvement on major networks, etc., it would devastate WWE. And it's not because a company that large is a bigger company than where WWE is today, because that's definitely not true, but because WWE is no where NEAR as stable TODAY as they were a year ago, when your argument that it wouldn't make a dent in them was most certainly true.

WWE is hemorrhaging money lately because of their Saudi deal. That deal made them a ton of money up front but investors are pulling out, stocks are dropping, ratings are dropping, subscription numbers are dropping, and if you were to throw a WCW 97 into the mix to take what WWE is leaving on the table? It could very easily mean the beginning of the end.

Let me give you an example of how todays markets are working here in the US. Dick's Sporting Goods, as a response to the school shootings we have had here, decided a number of months back to stop selling guns at their stores, now the problem is that Dick's is a store that caters to the hardcore sporting fans. Fans who love football, baseball, basketball, HUNTING & Fishing. These people are predominantly politically right leaning buyers and they pulled all their support and went elsewhere because other stores decided to go with their politically right leaning buyers and offer more gun sale options. Now about 6 months later Dick's is on the brink of bankruptcy because they didn't pay attention to who their customers were and what they wanted.

WWE is doing much the same thing and they have been for the last couple years now. Lucky for them there is no viable competition, because if they were even more people would join in the mass exodus away from a company that's insulting their intelligence left and right and giving them exactly what they don't want.

Todays markets are more reactionary than they've been in ages, and it's all about politics. If a company makes a stand saying they're on one side or another of some hot button topic, the people on the other side will boycott with amazing effectiveness, and the people on the same side will rally around that company even if they didn't previously care to patronize that company.

WWE alienating their audience is a death knell to fans to abandon ship and go to the competition... with the one obvious problem that there is no real competition. Hence why I say that a company like WCW97 could very well kill WWE today. And viewership, while not measured in the same ways as it has been in the past, is still vitally important to WWE, because viewership drives subscriptions and live audience attendance. 

Quote
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:


As far as taking out WWE right now though, that's simply not possible. Though if AEW had such a crazy high ground level, then in 10 years time, they could conceivably grow even further to become what WWE is today, and even enough more of a company to match what WWE could become in 10 years time.

No, they couldn't. You can get the network and watch more than 30 years of history. WWE isn't just WWE now, WWE is also nostalgia. Then, now, forever.

WWE is the company that refused to cancel the show after 9/11. WWE is the show that featured the president of the united states taking a Stone Cold Stunner. WWE is Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, John Cena and The Rock. It's Mike Tyson punching Shawn Michaels and Arnold Shwarzanegger punching Triple H.

What gets the most viewership on the WWE network? PPVs and NXT. And without those things, the other original content doesn't get viewership because they're not a draw to the network that will create new subscriptions.

So what do you have there? Reliance on NEW programming that's high quality and caters to the hardcore wrestling fan. Again, not a good sign if a WCW97 exists. People just don't watch enough of the old stuff, nor do they subscribe ENOUGH just to watch the old stuff to sustain WWE on that content alone should the new content cease to be a draw AND another company is offering great new content that's easily accessible for the same price or less.

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Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:


However, there's also the chance that WWE continues it's woes, stock drops, ratings, etc., while at the same time AEW makes that aforementioned growth, and that could be devastating not only to the WWE but to the wrestling industry as a whole, because why replace a market leader when you can have competition making both a better product?


Woes? Ratings are going down, sure. The stock price is far from woeful. Profit is going up and up. To any other company, including AEW should it happen, ratings losses are a problem. WWE has its lowest ratings in decades and Fox still spent a ton of money to buy it. They've developed and expanded to meet their audience using the network, YouTube, social media and shows in other countries.

Stock prices dropped out during the fallout from the Saudi incident and Crown Jewel. You can't say that they didn't. They may be far from woeful, but they're no where near what they were just this past summer. 

Fox spent a ton of money to buy Smackdown before all the drops in stock and viewership began, and if it were to continue (to be fair it seems to be leveling out a little) you had better believe Fox would be concerned and likely have a contingency plan in place to drop WWE for failure to meet minimum requirements. 

Quote
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Should we just end the conversation right there? No, WWE have no fans, you're right. My bad.

If AEW markets to wrestling fans then that's most of the WWE fanbase unavailable to them. The vast majority of WWE fans are casuals who will not seek out alternatives because they're happy with what they have. I thought you said you knew who the WWE target market is? That target market also makes up the majority of their fans.

We're going to have to agree to disagree there. WWE fans ARE wrestling fans, whether they're casual or not they're still wrestling fans, and if there is an AEW that's the size of WCW97 will be just as fickle about leaving to see a product that's gives wrestling fans better quality.

Quote
Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

Wrestling fans are already inundated with BAD options. Backyard wrestling isn't a viable option. Wrestling where promos aren't in English and locked behind multiple paywalls isn't an option for most English speaking fans. Wrestling where production values are abysmal, and storylines are shoddy at BEST isn't an option. Wrestling shows as a whole are sub-par. There simply isn't a product out there where the fan can say "It's like everything I used to love about WWE and more."

And you're assuming that AEW isn't going to be this. They'd have money, sure, but that's less about money and more about who's at the helm.

Yes, you're right. I AM, that's the WHOLE point of this conversation, that AEW offers a HIGH END product that isn't TNA 2012, that isn't ROH, that isn't ECW, but is something like you would have seen in WCW in 1997 or WWE 1998. It HAS to be high end top quality programming or this whole thing is null and void. I understand that completely and that's what I'm talking about. If you think I'm talking about AEW offering backyard wrestling and being able to do all of this, then that's completely insane. It couldn't happen in a million years. They NEED to offer high end production values, names and storyline, or they'll never be anything but the next Impact Wrestling, and who the fuck cares???

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Originally posted by Rico Len Rico Len wrote:

To be fair, these days it's easier to consume more media than ever before, and the fact that WCW & WWF went head to head in the same timeslot on the same night these days would mean very little because one would simply be watched digitally and both likely consumed regularly.

When you burn out on wrestling, which show are you going to watch less of? The new one with the people you haven't heard of or the older one that's all over social media, full of drawing power and is the comfort show.
I'm going to want to watch the new guys, who I DO know, who I have heard about, but haven't seen in a long time. I'm going to want to watch the one with the guys who left WWE to see how they've changed. I'm going to want to watch the one that has the hardcore fan excited because a product that can universally draw the hardcore fan is one that is offering the better product.

I've seen the old product. They're the ones that burned me out. Now I need something new, something better.

Quote It's like voting; people who don't know who to vote for are far more likely to vote for whoever's in power at the time. 

Phew. Long post. Thanks though; distracted me from work for a bit. Tongue
 
Vote out all incumbents, they caused the problems you're dealing with. 



Edited by Rico Len - 03/December/2018 at 16:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Colohue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/December/2018 at 11:51
Okay, we seem to have landed on our firm disagreements now so I think we'll leave it there. That was fun. 

Imagine typing all that out on your phone though? I mean, what a bloody nightmare. You made the right call.
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