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    Posted: 25/June/2010 at 16:11
Current limit is 16 weeks to be allowed one and there's talk of it being made lower. Agree or disagree?
 
Should abortions be allowed full stop? Should they only be allowed in extreme cases such as rape?
 
Should someone be limited to only being allowed say 2 abortions max in their life?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/June/2010 at 16:33
Its hard to really say but IMO if it was done in rape and then yes, abortions should be alright... I don't know because in a way, you're basically killing a human being even if they haven't been born yet.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kondor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/June/2010 at 16:33
To even think of allowing any to happen (in any country, I'm an American) absolutely disgusts me.

It is the worst thing the human race ever started doing; and I shudder and shiver at the fact that thousands of babies are murdered each year.

And yes, I know what I am saying and I hold firm on my words.

I've heard it all. Every argument in favor of abortion; and nothing can justify ripping a child's body apart in a vicious slaughter. A fertilized egg IS a life; it grows and moves and has DNA. I don't even favor abortions in the case of rape; for why should a child pay for the sins of the father? And many children who are products of rape grow on to live happy, fulfilling, and productive lives.

I hope for either a Constitutional amendment banning abortions in the U.S. or a reversal of the abomination known as Roe v Wade. And BTW, the Jane Roe herself who brought forth the case is now pro life and speaks out against abortion. And also BTW those who say that Roe v Wade is "the law of the land" or that it is "settled law" prove that they don't understand how the U.S. government works as it is merely the opinion of the land and arguably not even settled at that. And I never vote for a candidate who isn't solidly pro life.

And that's one of the (many) reasons I dislike President Obama so much is not only because he reversed the Mexico City Policy (where now our taxpayer dollars are going to abortion advice in other countries); but when he was in the Senate he voted against the Born Alive Protection Act, which says that babies accidentally born alive after a failed abortion attempts receive life saving treatment. Truly sickening. And partial birth abortions? uuuh [shudders] I don't even want to think about it.

Abortion is murder. Period.


Edited by Kondor - 26/June/2010 at 09:26

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legendkiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/June/2010 at 17:22
I think that abortions should be allowed only 10 weeks max after conceding and I also think that abortions in girls under 18 years of age should be allowed too.

I'm not a fan of it but sometimes it's the only way

BTW I was just checking to BBC and I found that fetus doesn't feel pain until 24 weeks

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/10403496.stm


Edited by legendkiller - 25/June/2010 at 17:39

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ministry Hunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/June/2010 at 17:52
I don't care why any of these anti-abortionists say, no-one has the right to tell someone what they should do with their body or life, why do think a lot of kids from teenage pregnancies grow up to be criminals?  Because they came from a parent and or parents who were a) too young to have children and/or b) Didn't want the child in the first place, so the kids weren't brought up well.

"Many children who are products of rape grow up to have happy, fulfilling lives".

PLEASE show me the hard evidence of that, because almost every time I've seen that, the child grows up the exact opposite, how dare you tell a woman that she should be forced to carry the spawn of some bastard who raped her.

My point is, don't tell someone how they should live their life or what to do with their body, if you want the country you live in to do so, go live in North Korea or a totalitarian Middle East state where that is done, because quite frankly, someone choosing to have an unborn fetus aborted is THEIR choice, not YOURS.

It's amazing how some people who like to proclaim they live in a free country want to take away the freedom of others so much.


Edited by Ministry Hunter - 25/June/2010 at 17:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pac-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/June/2010 at 19:08
My problem with the whole strictly pro-life philosophy, especially with the strictness that Kon puts it, is that it tries to use the force of law to impose the thought that life begins at conception and abortion is murder and the world's ultimate evil into law onto everyone else under penalty of life in prison, near-unanimously, without exception or consideration of the condition of the people involved or this overpopulated world in general, when half the people it would be imposed on don't even agree with it. My take is that it's simply much easier to not do it, and to try to convince others around you to make the conscious decision to not do it of their own accord, preferably by being more reasonable and thoughtful than merely shilling about how it's evil and murder.

That's why I consider myself personally pro-life (I wouldn't really recommend that anybody do it, and if I had a wife that wanted to abort my kid I would make sure she's doing it for the right reason and she's ready to face whatever her conscience says for it) but politically pro-choice (I wouldn't use the law to punish people for it in a country that cannot even come close to agreeing whether or not it's unconditionally an unnecessary evil).

To look at where the strategy of "call it evil, make it illegal, and it'll go away" has backfired upon the world at large, and I'm well aware this is different but I still think I have a point here, just ask a prominent drug dealer how prohibition in the Great Depression days and the War on Drugs today have worked out. Idiots like Jeff Hardy and RVD haven't exactly worked themselves out, and all these rules have done is turned entire profitable industries over to organized crime.


Edited by Pac-Man - 25/June/2010 at 19:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ministry Hunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/June/2010 at 19:27
Don't get me wrong, but I'm not against pro-life people, I'm against anti-choice which is what Kon's way of thinking is, outright banning abortion in the US won't change anything, as people will simply travel overseas or to Canada, like it is here, abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland & Republic of Ireland, but women simply travel over to England for abortion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John The Baptist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25/June/2010 at 21:37
We have a massive problem with teenage pregnancy in England, I'd rather these people get an abortion rather than have the kid and be a terrible parent.

Plus, if someone wants an abortion they have already shown that they don't want/aren't ready for a child, what would be the point in forcing someone to be a parent of a child they dont want? Thats just fucking dumb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigfloridapimp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/June/2010 at 06:09
When I was younger, I was strongly in the side of NO ABORTION. It used to make me feel bad to think people killed unborn babies and I used to have hate towards mothers who did it. I was like in 4th grade... I was also in a Private school and I also used to think porn was dirty. (Not anymore... LoL. DONT KILL ME FOR KEEPING IT LIGHT!)

I used to be emotionally distressed to the point of tears on the subject. And while sometimes I still am, I grew up and I am more mature about it. Before I saw black and white, but now I see the gray area. While I would become the Hulk if I ever found out a girlfriend or wife had aborted my baby, I also feel great sympathy for young girls who have been raped. I dont see why a baby has to have a baby anyways. If you abort the baby before it becomes a baby, is it really that bad? I try to imagine how I would feel if I was a young girl had been raped then had to raise and even birth the product of the worst moments of your life.

granted I still dont like or agree with abortion, But I just cant see it in a black and white sense, I just cant be like I was. I know that I would never ban abortion either, but even while I and others may be against it in most or all cases, like others have stated it is none of our business and it isnt our choice. It is a free country and as long as we arent actually killing a baby, I guess I can live with it. I mean abortion is happening right now as I post this, they happen all the time and its not weighing on my life every moment of the day. Just like I can imagine unless the topic is brought up or the random thought pops up, no one else is stressing on it all the time either.

I guess what I am trying to say, is if it was this big monumental thing that you hate so much, it would control your life... And to feel so one way and to not even think about the other way as a possibility, shouldnt that thing basically control your life? IDK... Just a thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kondor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/June/2010 at 11:34
Originally posted by Ministry Hunter Ministry Hunter wrote:

I don't care why any of these anti-abortionists say, no-one has the right to tell someone what they should do with their body or life,


I agree. And that is exactly why no unborn baby should be "told" that their bodies are gonna be ripped apart and that they won't get to live their life. My problem with pro choicers is that they place so much emphasis on the "rights" of the mother but often give none to the child.


Originally posted by Ministry Hunter Ministry Hunter wrote:

why do think a lot of kids from teenage pregnancies grow up to be criminals?  Because they came from a parent and or parents who were a) too young to have children and/or b) Didn't want the child in the first place, so the kids weren't brought up well.


Then the answer is to educate and have greater help programs for single or young parents; not to kill the child.


Originally posted by Ministry Hunter Ministry Hunter wrote:

"Many children who are products of rape grow up to have happy, fulfilling lives".

PLEASE show me the hard evidence of that, because almost every time I've seen that, the child grows up the exact opposite, how dare you tell a woman that she should be forced to carry the spawn of some bastard who raped her.


Gladly. In fact I'll post two. One, the most powerful in my opinion, are the words of a brave young girl who has a blog on a pdf file. Her words read in part as below...

"Having been adopted as a baby, I knew almost nothing about my birth mother. At age 18, I requested my mother's "non identifying information"and learned that a serial rapist had brutally raped her at knifepoint. The was how I was conceived. I remember feeling ugly and unwanted, and wondered, "Who would ever love me?"

growing up, I never thought abortion applied to my life, but then in one moment, it had to do with my very existence. I heard the echoes of all those people who would say: "Well, except in cases of rape..." or "Especially in cases of rape!" I realized they were talking about me - about my life. I felt as if I was going to have to justify my own existence and prove to the world that I shouldn't have been aborted and that my life was worth living."

She goes on on page 2 to say how she feels she is a blessing to her mother. I applaud this young girl. I hope you read the rest of what she has to say in the link below.

http://www.hh76.com/lit/952CR.pdf

My second example is that of Kelly Wright, a Fox News anchor who also lives a happy life and who's story can be found in the article in the link below.

http://www.jillstanek.com/pregnancy/foxs-kelly-wrig.html

Originally posted by Ministry Hunter Ministry Hunter wrote:

My point is, don't tell someone how they should live their life or what to do with their body, if you want the country you live in to do so, go live in North Korea or a totalitarian Middle East state where that is done, because quite frankly, someone choosing to have an unborn fetus aborted is THEIR choice, not YOURS.

It's amazing how some people who like to proclaim they live in a free country want to take away the freedom of others so much.


Wow, why didn't anyone point out the slippery slope fallacy on this one. Just because a nation has laws (including the law against abortion that I want), that does not make it a totalitarian state nor does it make it valid to compare it to one. There has to be some laws that a society has in order to prevent anarchy; and I want laws banning abortion to be among them the same way most sane people want laws banning the murder of born people. And it impedes on people's freedom no more than laws banning murder or grand theft do. 

And no, it should not be the mother's choice, because their "choice" impedes upon the child's right to live. And it is the child's right to chose to live, not YOURS to paraphrase you.


Originally posted by Pac-Man Pac-Man wrote:

My problem with the whole strictly pro-life philosophy, especially with the strictness that Kon puts it, is that it tries to use the force of law to impose the thought that life begins at conception and abortion is murder and the world's ultimate evil into law onto everyone else under penalty of life in prison, near-unanimously, without exception or consideration of the condition of the people involved or this overpopulated world in general, when half the people it would be imposed on don't even agree with it. My take is that it's simply much easier to not do it, and to try to convince others around you to make the conscious decision to not do it of their own accord, preferably by being more reasonable and thoughtful than merely shilling about how it's evil and murder.


Your argument works against itself in two different ways.

The first way is that if the anti abortion amendment is passed that I want; it would not "use the force of law to impose" because it will still be passed through the democratic process. The amendment  would originate in the House (elected by the people) and passed by a majority of the states; or visa versa. And that process was put there by the Constitution that was written and ratified by the people. If you want to argue the unlikeliness of this happening; fine. But I am just stating what I as a responsible citizen wish. It would be the "force of law", but only force of law put there by the people; the power is still in the hands of the people.


The second way your argument works against itself is that you are assuming that if you are basing what should be law should be based on (and I'm paraphrasing) "what half of the people agree with", then you are making the mistake of assuming the people are indeed capable of governing themselves. The ultimate argument about whether democracy is a success or not is that theoretically if a majority of the people favored murder (of born people) than murder (of born people) would be legal; and this would be a sign that the concept of democracy itself has failed. I see abortion as being the same as murder; therefore (the way I see it) if a majority of the people are pro choice then that is a sign to me that the people aren't capable of governing themselves and that direct democracy itself should not be. Therefore in this situation the will of the majority of the people doesn't matter because they have proven they don't know what's best.

And the overpopulation problem could be solved by someone if they're not aborted first.

I didn't go into detail in any "reasonable and thoughtful" argument because I didn't deem it necessary. I only thought it necessary to state the facts that abortion is murder and I figured that statement had reason enough in it. But if you insist I'll be glad to provide visual evidence...


[viewer discretion advised]


























 



Originally posted by Pac-Man Pac-Man wrote:

To look at where the strategy of "call it evil, make it illegal, and it'll go away" has backfired upon the world at large, and I'm well aware this is different but I still think I have a point here, just ask a prominent drug dealer how prohibition in the Great Depression days and the War on Drugs today have worked out. Idiots like Jeff Hardy and RVD haven't exactly worked themselves out, and all these rules have done is turned entire profitable industries over to organized crime.


I agree that merely making something illegal won't outright make it go away; but it will surely lessen it. Alcohol use did not end during prohibition; but it did decrease and ditto with the war of drugs. I am not naive enough to think that a ban would end all abortions; but a law combined with education and help programs, including private, like Life Call and SOS Children's Villages for instance; both of which I've known for years as a great help for all expectant mothers in need of answers, guidance, legal help, adoption services, child care services, and spiritual guidance. I've even e mailed the guy who runs SOS before so I know what they do.

Law COMBINED WITH education and programs will greatly lessen the number of abortions in America.  And to save one life is worth it in my eyes.

Originally posted by Ministry Hunter Ministry Hunter wrote:

Don't get me wrong, but I'm not against pro-life people, I'm against anti-choice which is what Kon's way of thinking is, outright banning abortion in the US won't change anything, as people will simply travel overseas or to Canada, like it is here, abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland & Republic of Ireland, but women simply travel over to England for
abortion.


Sure, if abortion is banned in the US SOME women will seek abortions elsewhere; but the number of abortions will still go down obviously as not everyone can travel to a foreign country. Some will try to get a back alley abortion, but only a small percentage.

 
Originally posted by bigfloridapimp bigfloridapimp wrote:

I also feel great sympathy for young girls who have been raped. I dont see why a baby has to have a baby anyways. If you abort the baby before it becomes a baby, is it really that bad? I try to imagine how I would feel if I was a young girl had been raped then had to raise and even birth the product of the worst moments of your life.


Of course I feel sympathy for any girl or woman who was raped; and I can never pretend to know what it is like to be in their shoes. Believe me, it is not my aim to cause any additional pain for her. But I also feel for the child. I consider the baby to be a baby and a life from the point of conception; so therefore I would see abortion as being "that bad" in this case. And this does not mean the the mother would be forced to raise the child; the Life Call link is above and they are good people.

Originally posted by bigfloridapimp bigfloridapimp wrote:

granted I still dont like or agree with abortion, But I just cant see it in a black and white sense, I just cant be like I was. I know that I would never ban abortion either, but even while I and others may be against it in most or all cases, like others have stated it is none of our business and it isnt our choice. It is a free country and as long as we arent actually killing a baby, I guess I can live with it.


You know where I disagree with the above words so I won't repeat what I have already stated. But I'll add that it has to be our business; if somebody sees (what they believe to be) wrongdoing they have a duty to at least speak out against it and at most take action. And of course I do see it on a par as actually killing a baby.

Originally posted by bigfloridapimp bigfloridapimp wrote:

I mean abortion is happening right now as I post this, they happen all the time and its not weighing on my life every moment of the day. Just like I can imagine unless the topic is brought up or the random thought pops up, no one else is stressing on it all the time either.


That's another thing that hunts me. There have been a number of babies aborted since I started writing this post and a few more before I'm though. I feel for them. And even more during the time that you and others read this. I see it as a tragedy.

Originally posted by bigfloridapimp bigfloridapimp wrote:

I guess what I am trying to say, is if it was this big monumental thing that you hate so much, it would control your life... And to feel so one way and to not even think about the other way as a possibility, shouldnt that thing basically control your life? IDK... Just a thought.


With all due respect, you act like I've never thought about the other argument before. Of course I've listened to what the other side has to say, many times over years. I arrived at the conclusions I did after much thought. With all due respect to everyone here, this is not the first time I've heard these arguments. If someone here brings up something new that I haven't heard before; I'll consider it. Until then, I've done what I believe the purpose of the human mind is for and arrived at a conclusion.



Edited by Kondor - 26/June/2010 at 12:16

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